Need help with price for magic item

[Lord Ben]

I don't know, if my player wanted it I'd agree with a 10k price. His str may be higher, but his claw attacks have a poorer critical range and multipliers, plus he dosen't do as much damage as with a greataxe. He'd also lose all his AC bonus and I think bears are large so he'd lose that too right? He can't affect things with damage reduction, and when he isn't raging he's wearing hide armor.

Lets compare it to Rhino Hide armor from the DMG. Rhino hide is +2 hide armor, it doubles damage done on a charge, and the cost is only 5, 165gp. I don't know what str your barbarian has now, but I doubt this item will increase it much. Also with Rhino Hide there isn't any drawbacks other then what you normally get when charging. With the Bear Hide armor you probably lose a significant amount of AC since the MM Brown bear has AC15 and you'd probably lose another 2 for raging. I'd accept the 10k as a DM, but I'd probably also accept it as equal to the Rhino Hide. It may be cool to be a bear, but it's also cool to wield a +1 Keen Greataxe... It equals out...

 

[kreynolds]

OK, the story behind the hide armor is that the armor is made from the skin of a bear; the most accurate I could come up with is hide.

That's pretty cool. Themed items can add a bit of depth to a game. Good job on making a pretty slick item look rather mundane. Thumbs up for that.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

On a side note,

As a DM, I would never give a price discount for a restriction that doesn't matter. i.e. armor that only works for someone who can rage is not a hindrance for the PC who can rage. And armor that can only change you into a troll is no worse than armor with full polymorph capabilities...if all you intend to change into is a troll. (Likely, since that's the best humanoid form you can get.)

I read a post once which took the idea of ridiculous "limitation" discounts to the logical extreme, and created a vorpal weapon for less than 10,000gp, because it could only be used by elven barbarians named Bob. Of course, the PC who wanted it was an elven barbarian named Bob.

The price discounts for limitations only come into effect IMC when you sell an item you've found. i.e. if I drop a vorpal sword that can only be used by elven barbarians named Bob, then Bob goes and tries to sell it, it's going to go for a lot less on the market. But I won't allow the PCs to use such meaningless limitations to get around the fair price of an item.

Of course others may feel differently, but this magic item would definitely cost more than 10,000gp (probably a bit more than 20,000gp) IMC.

 

[Geoff Watson]

On a side note,
As a DM, I would never give a price discount for a restriction that doesn't matter. i.e. armor that only works for someone who can rage is not a hindrance for the PC who can rage.
I agree with this part. Only working while raging is a hindrance though.

And armor that can only change you into a troll is no worse than armor with full polymorph capabilities...if all you intend to change into is a troll.

I disagree. There have been several times where a non-limited polymorph would be much better. An example from two sessions ago: The group was underwater, using potions of water breathing, while fighting some aboleths, kuo-toa, and skum. If the fighter could polymorph into something with a swim speed, he wouldn't have been completely useless due to failing swim checks most of the time.

Geoff.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree with this part. Only working while raging is a hindrance though.

By 8th-level, a barbarian can rage 3/day, probably enough for a rage every battle, every day. If not, then by 12th, 4/day should do it. Since the barbarian's never going to want to polymorph into a bear when he's not raging, that's not a hindrance in my book.

I disagree. There have been several times where a non-limited polymorph would be much better. An example from two sessions ago: The group was underwater, using potions of water breathing, while fighting some aboleths, kuo-toa, and skum. If the fighter could polymorph into something with a swim speed, he wouldn't have been completely useless due to failing swim checks most of the time.

Geoff.

Sure, it would have been nice to change into something with a swim speed. But look at the one time it would have been nice to change into a swimmer, and compare that to the tens, perhaps even hundreds of times the PC changed into a troll...exactly what he would have changed into with a full polymorph.

I'm not saying that a limited item is in all ways as good as a non-limited one, Geoff. What I am saying is that it's not enough of a hindrance for me to allow a price-cut. Doing so strikes me as merely a way to get what you want for less money than should be paid.

Also, please don't take the fact that I used the troll-polymorphing item from your campaign as an attack on you, your players, or your campaign. It was merely a convenient example. I'm not saying that I think what you did was wrong, or implying any sort of wrongness in what you allowed in your world. I was merely offering my own perspective, and how I'd adjudicate it in my world.

 

[med stud]

That's pretty cool. Themed items can add a bit of depth to a game. Good job on making a pretty slick item look rather mundane. Thumbs up for that.

Thanks

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Quick answer

I would cost the item exactly as you seem to be asking for it at 34,600 gp market price.

With a seemingly minor change - you could cut the cost down to 8056gp







First, the polymorph feature of the item as you describe it "activates when the character wearing it rages" - which is use activated - not command word. Second, the barbarian's rage can be entered as a free action, and the spell would come into effect at that speed. I thus require that the spell be metamagicked to quicken spell - and charge you for a level 8 spell - not a fourth level one - and assign minimum caster level at 15th.
Yes - this hurts... but now for the bright side.

The nifty cost reducing thing about this item, is that the number of times it can be used is limited by the fact that the typical "barbarian" cannot rage all that often.
Thus, I would divide the base cost by 5. I would NOT award the "class ability only" discount in this case, as this is how the item can only be used a certain number of times per day. The higher level barbarian could get more use out of it - which is nice if the item gets into the hands of the "right" character.

Now, because only one form is possible - and you therefore have a limited function of a given spell - I would give you a 30 percent discount on the polymorph feature.

My equation for the polymorph ability useable only in conjunction with, and activating simultaneously upon a character entering a rage:

(.7(15 x8 x2000))/5 +1000gp

Spell requires 15th caster level
After quickening this is an 8th level spell
Item is use activated
Spell is limited - in that you may take only one form
Item is useable only a specific number of times per day
+1 enhancement bonus to AC

The equation comes out at 34,600gp base price.



Version 2:
If you specify that the barbarian must speak a specific phrase as he enters a rage - rendering the activation both that of a standard action, and a command word. - the formula changes:

(.7(7 X4 x1800))/5 +1000gp

Spell requires 7th caster level
Spell is fourth level
Item is command word activated
Item is useable only a specific number of times per day
+1 enhancement bonus to AC

This version comes out to an incredibly cheap 8056gp -
about the cost of a +2 to +3 item.


Requirements for version 1:
Polymorph self, Creator must know the quicken spell feat and be able to apply it to this spell. (thus - 15th caster level using wizard version) Craft Arms and Armor

Requirement for version 2:
Polymorph self, Craft Arms and Armor


In either version - the +1 of the armor is useable by any character - so this is undiscounted. In either version - you must also specify that ending the rage also ends the polymorph effect.

Now - as far as the objection that the character would only want to turn into a bear while raging - I would say no. The one situation where you want to turn into something other than a bear - you can't - and that one situation is often all you need. Also - remember that the character using this armor HAS to be able to rage - the fighter, ranger, rogue - druid... no one else can use the item in this capacity. Second, there are plenty of times when you con't want to use this feature at all - such as when fighting something that you need a magic weapon to hit. Third, don't make the mistake of judging an item based solely on how THAT character will use it - judge it based on how any given character might use it - or in this case, not be able to do so.