Need Replacement for Homebrew Mythos

[SkidAce]

I have a homebrew that I have a lot of fun designing different backgrounds and cosmic/world history for, yet sorta staying within the framework of whatever edition I am playing. (since 1st ED)

In my cosmic history I used the titans as creators of the building blocks of existance. Over the years they morphed a bit to coincide with my mythos. (Babylonion/Egyptian/Cthulhoid). I used the elder titans as their basic template, and made them the children of Ptah, creator of pathways and knowledge. Instead of things like fire and cold, the elder titans personified forces, gravity, space, time, etc. Players enjoyed awakening an elder titan from its slumber in an enormous chair, and standing at its feet as they explained their quest.

On to the problem(?). Titans in 4th ed dont fit in that niche. I can still use the lesser titans (fire, frost, storm, water, etc) as depicted in 4th ed in my campaign. But elder titans of greek stature (mostly human just huge and powerful) conflict with the basic story of 4th ed history. They wouldn't be the children of a god, they wouldn't work to create AND maintain the cosmos like I had them.

So after a long time beating my head against a table, I find myself at an impasse...
1. I want to keep "elder" titans in their role of creators and maintainers guided by Ptah.
2. I want to use the titans/primordials versus gods creation mythos of 4th ed.

Normally I can come up with a story or plot for any retro fits in my campaign when editions change that makes sense, but this one has me stumped for a good "wow, fits right into place" solution like I normally do.

...looking for inputs

 

[Siberys]

It may just be Disney clouding my memory, but weren't the greek gods and titans essentially in a bigger family dispute over who was in charge, since Zeus killed Cronus? You could go with that; The titans built the world, and maintain it, but the gods, whether justly or not, now control it. INSTANT SOURCE OF TENSION.

I think greek titans represented elemental and physical forces, too, though again that may be Disney messing with my mind.

Ptah is then no longer a god, but an elder elder titan. Like, Cronus' Heir-designate when the head god stomped in and ruined his plans.

Plus this'd allow for a pretty rich inter-deity soap-opera-type mythos. Greek mythology is fun!

 

[SkidAce]

Ptah is then no longer a god, but an elder elder titan. Like, Cronus' Heir-designate when the head god stomped in and ruined his plans.

Hmmm, making Ptah not a god (using titans then makes sense). That would put him on the scale of a primordial. He could be, and that makes everything else fit well, but now I would have to figure out why he doesn't want to pull it all apart and create it again like the other primordials do.

And why he wasn't imprisoned. Guess he sided with the gods. These are good thoughts and may work. Let me brainstorm a bit.

 

[Starfox]

Ptah is the mysterious creator that somewhat defies classification. Seen today as a god, he might not be. He created the Titans as helpers. The titans rule the world. Then the gods appear to claim the world. Titans resist. War.

That's really all it takes to merge the two myths.

Maybe Ptah really IS a god and merely used the titans as helpers, now considering them spent and obsolete. Or maybe he is something more than a god and is neutral in the conflict between gods and titans.

In 4E, primordials and titans are mostly chaotic evil. In your myth, they'd probably be a little more complex than that: many of them might actually be a narrow-minded Lawful neutral, but I don't think this really shakes the creation myth or require titans to be respecced.

What you would have to change are the primordials. In your world, 4E primordials should be replaced with super-titans of a more anthropomorphic mien. 4E titans are not godlike in power nor very humanlike in appearance. "Ordinary" 4E titans become the servants of the Super-Titans, more super-giants than actual titans. But this is just a question of nomenclature.

Making new True Titans to replace the primordials doesn't sound like such a problem to me - after all, they are not every day monsters but the kind of epic behind-the-scenes guys you generally want individually crafted anyway.

 

[Quantarum]

In my own campaign I use the term "ur titan" to distinguish between huge giants and their progenitors. -Q.

 

[SkidAce]

I appreciate the help so far. It appears to have given me at least at direction I had missed. I had been all about using my titans then trying to figure out why they worked with a god.

But, changing Ptah's origin (which nobody knows anyway) seems to work. And he can drag his favorite race of titans along with him. I could make Ptah a primordial that "saw" the light and sided with the gods. After all since he is such a creator and maintainer, he could have become satisfied with this particular world. Or maybe his essence became infused in this creation and to destroy this one would destroy him.

Starfox, Ptah has always been a Neutral type so that's not a problem. I am not sure I want to "replace" any other primordials though. The ideas of the "super anthromorphic" titans I will probably keep for the assistants that helped Ptah.

On a side note...replacing primordials with "ur-titans", thanks Quantarum, would keep me from having two major categories of CE creatures, demons and primordials.

But I am kinda taken with the idea of non-evil titans. Indifferent lawful opens up lot's of possibilities for other abackground adventure hooks.

 

[Siberys]

Well, you really needn't even make Ptah side with the gods;

1) Ptah is a primordial (maybe THE primordial?). The titans are his helpers. This stands with 4e. Go ahead and call this ur-titan or whatever.

2) The ONE change you have to make is to further differentiate primordials from demons. I think they're too close in core, anyways, personally.

Demons become the ones that want to tear apart the world (as normal); now primordials (Ptah in your mythos) would just want to regain control of the world from those thieving gods, 'cause rebuilding the universe is a lot of work. This keeps them adversarial without making them world-destroyers. Lawful Neutral would be a great fit. Demons could then remain tainted, insane primordials, as in core 4e.

As Starfox said;

Ptah is the mysterious creator that somewhat defies classification. Seen today as a god, he might not be. He created the Titans as helpers. The titans rule the world. Then the gods appear to claim the world. Titans resist. War.

 

[Starfox]

I like the name ur-titan.

Many Rl myths feature a primordial creator that sides with the gods or steps down peacefully to allow the gods to reign. In the Greek mythos, the various earth godesses never oppose anyone - it is their children in different generations that fight it out. Titans and gods have the same ancestry.

The same can be true of Ptah; first he creates giants, then gods. Is he either a titan or a god? Does it matter?

 

[SkidAce]

I like the name ur-titan.

Many Rl myths feature a primordial creator that sides with the gods or steps down peacefully to allow the gods to reign. In the Greek mythos, the various earth godesses never oppose anyone - it is their children in different generations that fight it out. Titans and gods have the same ancestry.

The same can be true of Ptah; first he creates giants, then gods. Is he either a titan or a god? Does it matter?

Yes, this the route I am going. He didn't create the gods though, just the material plane (world).

Might paste story here when done modifying all the little bits to fit the ripple effect of changing Ptah from a god to a "powerful thing/primordial" that created the ur-titans while his buddies created the regular titans.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ptah can be the the ultimate source of creation if you want. Not a god, primordial, or titan he's more like one of the unnamed class of entities from "outside". The whole shebang can be his handiwork. Maybe he didn't create gods or primordials directly. Maybe he just created titans to do his construction work making the Star Sea and the Elemental Chaos. Later the gods and primordials arose, possibly due to some design of Ptah's.