Need some clarification on reach weapons for Large/Huge creatures

[NewJeffCT]

This was a bit confusing for my group before, and I am not a rules expert. So, I wanted to clarify if it comes up again in game.

I was looking at the Cloud Giant in particular – it often uses a Gargantuan Morningstar, according to the Monster Manual. However, a Cloud Giant is merely “Huge” in size, not Gargantuan. 1) Does this make it a reach weapon for the Cloud Giant?

2) If it had a definite Reach Weapon, say, a Huge Glaive (or, if the gargantuan Morningstar was a reach weapon), it could then strike at a melee target with that glaive/morningstar if it was up to 30 feet away, I believe, correct?. 3) However, if the melee target closed to less than 20 feet, it could not attack them with its Glaive? Or, would that be less than 15 feet because the giant’s normal reach is 15?

4) But, if the cloud giant were using its non-reach weapon, how far away would it be able to attack? 20 feet? 25 feet? 5) And, since it was not a reach weapon, it could still attack a melee target that was within 15 feet, correct?

5) Would said cloud giant be able to work in conjunction with some medium sized creatures (say, orcs) who could stay within 5-15 feet of the giant and act as a living wall of flesh in front of the giant? I was thinking of that to delay the PCs attacking said giant in melee while they hacked through the orcs, but the giant could still attack them.

Thanks

 

[frankthedm]

All the Storm Giant effectively gets is a two handed morning star. Much like the Titan is wielding a two handed war hammer.

I was looking at the Cloud Giant in particular – it often uses a Gargantuan Morningstar, according to the Monster Manual. However, a Cloud Giant is merely “Huge” in size, not Gargantuan. 1) Does this make it a reach weapon for the Cloud Giant?

No Extra reach. Wielding a larger sized weapon does not grat that size category's reach.

2) If it had a definite Reach Weapon, say, a Huge Glaive (or, if the gargantuan Morningstar was a reach weapon), it could then strike at a melee target with that glaive/morningstar if it was up to 30 feet away, I believe, correct?.

3) However, if the melee target closed to less than 20 feet, it could not attack them with its Glaive? Or, would that be less than 15 feet because the giant’s normal reach is 15?

Even if something can wield a larger size category's reach weapon, reach still only double the creature's natural reach.

4) But, if the cloud giant were using its non-reach weapon, how far away would it be able to attack? 20 feet? 25 feet?

15' feet.

I5a) And, since it was not a reach weapon, it could still attack a melee target that was within 15 feet, correct?

Those within 15' are all it could attack.

5b) Would said cloud giant be able to work in conjunction with some medium sized creatures (say, orcs) who could stay within 5-15 feet of the giant and act as a living wall of flesh in front of the giant? I was thinking of that to delay the PCs attacking said giant in melee while they hacked through the orcs, but the giant could still attack them.

Well, if the DM wants to include creatures as obstacles as far as Low Obstacles and Cover is concerned, then it works.

Low Obstacles and Cover

A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.

Usefull link

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...enlarge-person-reach-weapons.html#post3188585

 

[NewJeffCT]

A
A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.

Usefull link

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...enlarge-person-reach-weapons.html#post3188585

Thanks - a lot of good help there.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No Extra reach. Wielding a larger sized weapon does not grat that size category's reach.
Even if something can wield a larger size category's reach weapon, reach still only double the creature's natural reach.

Actually, there are two schools of thought on this. When this question was put to the Sage, he said that the wording of the rule was vague, but allowing a creature wielding an oversized weapon to have the advantage of additional reach was within the spirit of the rule. (I have a cite to issue & page on my PDA, but its not here right now- I'll try to remember to post it later.)

Personally, I allow it, but play in games where its not allowed.

Regardless of your personal take on it, be sure to 1) be consistent in the rule's application and 2) make sure everyone in the group understands it.

 

[irdeggman]

Actually, there are two schools of thought on this. When this question was put to the Sage, he said that the wording of the rule was vague, but allowing a creature wielding an oversized weapon to have the advantage of additional reach was within the spirit of the rule. (I have a cite to issue & page on my PDA, but its not here right now- I'll try to remember to post it later.)

Personally, I allow it, but play in games where its not allowed.

Regardless of your personal take on it, be sure to 1) be consistent in the rule's application and 2) make sure everyone in the group understands it.

pg 53

How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation?

A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach. An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics
added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for saving me a 100' walk, irdeggman!

Do you have the issue cite to go with that page ref?

 

[Shin Okada]

The problem of that sages last comment is, large horizontal creatures don't get 10-foot reach even if they are wielding a large weapon, nor get 20-foot reach even if they are wielding a large reach weapon (like large lance). Look stats blocks of Centaur or Armanite demon. So that interpretation contradict to the stats of already existing creatures.

If your play group allow such interpretation, horizontal creatures using manufactured weapons should get longer reach in the same manner.

 

[frankthedm]

The problem of that sages last comment is, large horizontal creatures don't get 10-foot reach even if they are wielding a large weapon, nor get 20-foot reach even if they are wielding a large reach weapon (like large lance). Look stats blocks of Centaur or Armanite demon. So that interpretation contradict to the stats of already existing creatures.

i have to disagree there. The sage answer's context was pretty clear it was dealing with the large(tall) class where the vast majority of large weapon wielders are. Large (long) weapon wielders are the odd ducks out and the majority of those follow the centaur's large weapons, no reach right in their descriptions. Indeed that why the wording is "A typical Large character"

 

[Shin Okada]

i have to disagree there. The sage answer's context was pretty clear it was dealing with the large(tall) class where the vast majority of large weapon wielders are. Large (long) weapon wielders are the odd ducks out and the majority of those follow the centaur's large weapons, no reach right in their descriptions. Indeed that why the wording is "A typical Large character"

But isn't that strange? Centaur is not smaller than a medium humanoid who happen to have some item, ability, or feat which allows him to wield a large weapon.

Then a centaur with lance only has 10 feet reach and that medium character with large lance has a 20 feet reach? That seems really odd.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

But isn't that strange? Centaur is not smaller than a medium humanoid who happen to have some item, ability, or feat which allows him to wield a large weapon.

Then a centaur with lance only has 10 feet reach and that medium character with large lance has a 20 feet reach? That seems really odd.

I think folks are a little confused.

The Sage's answer doesn't say that a Medium creature wielding a Large reach weapon has the reach of a Large creature with a Large reach weapon, or even that of a Medium creature with a Large reach weapon's reach. (What does that even mean?) He says a Medium creature with a Large reach weapon gains the benefit of reach, even though the weapon isn't "of the appropriate size."

A Medium creature using a Medium longspear has 10-foot reach. A Medium creature using a Large longspear has 10-foot reach ... instead of, as the RAW could be read, no reach at all (because it's not an appropriately sized weapon).

A Large (long) creature like a centaur is still a weird case, aesthetically, because to gain a 10-foot reach the centaur needs a Large longspear, and we're accustomed to thinking of centaurs as normal-sized humans ... just, you know, half-horse. But from a rules perspective, it works fine.