Need some clarification on reach weapons for Large/Huge creatures

[frankthedm]

The creature not receiving any reach from such a immense weapon is just as unrealistic and unreasonable as the ability to use such a weapon in the first place.

I have difficulty in seeing how you can read anything else into the Sage's response.

Agree.

Everytime he mentions weapons he talks about "reach" he never mentions larger weapons without using reach. If he did you might have a case - but I think you have been inserting the preconception you had into the arguement.

There was a time Dannyalcatraz would have had a point. The 3.0 [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Species-Monstrous-Characters-Supplement/dp/0786926481/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228762290&sr=8-2"]Savage Species[/ame] actually did seem to have the amount of reach be a factor of the weapon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sure ... if all he were talking about was stuff like MG and PB.

But he's not. He's talking about any character using a too-large weapon, which by RAW -- since it's not a weapon of "appropriate size" -- doesn't allow the character to double his natural reach.

So the Sage is saying, "Yes, it's in the spirit and intent of the rules to allow your Medium character to double his reach when wielding a Large longspear, even though the RAW says 'appropriate' size. The spirit and intent of the rules is 'at least' appropriate size."

Question to the Sage
How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation?

As far as oversized weapons is concerned, its clear he is only talking about MG (and PB, by implication)- the other situation he's asked about regards undersized reach weapons.

He's specifically being asked about characters using improperly sized reach weapons only, not just any too-large weapon. Since almost all reach weapons are 2 handed, a normal character can't use an oversized reach weapon (except something like the Whip) at all unless he has MG or PB:

Hypertext d20SRD
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

(emphasis mine)

Without MG or PB, most oversized reach weapons are simply too big to use.

As already pointed out, MG & PB allow normal use of oversized melee weapons. Given that they are introduced in subsequent rule supplements, they can reasonably be assumed to be modifying the underlying rule in the PHB...just like some other feats and racial features do. There should be no question that normal use of a reach weapon includes the reach itself, RAW.

Thus, the Sage is referring to something else.

 

[irdeggman]

As far as oversized weapons is concerned, its clear he is only talking about MG (and PB, by implication)- the other situation he's asked about regards undersized reach weapons.

He's specifically being asked about characters using improperly sized reach weapons only, not just any too-large weapon. Since almost all reach weapons are 2 handed, a normal character can't use an oversized reach weapon (except something like the Whip) at all unless he has MG or PB:



(emphasis mine)

Without MG or PB, most oversized reach weapons are simply too big to use.

As already pointed out, MG & PB allow normal use of oversized melee weapons. Given that they are introduced in subsequent rule supplements, they can reasonably be assumed to be modifying the underlying rule in the PHB...just like some other feats and racial features do. There should be no question that normal use of a reach weapon includes the reach itself, RAW.

Thus, the Sage is referring to something else.

Hmmm I disagree.

He was asked using MG & PB as a reference but hsi answere talked about reach weapons in general.

He often answers questions much more broadly than what was asked.


His comments referred to reach weapons in general and specificallly about oversized ones.


Thus his answer addresses potential future questions about such weapons not related to MG & PB since he never addressed "how a medium character could wield a large weapon" and basically the following is how he feels a reasonable approach to covering larger reach weapons.

Note that not all reach weapons require 2 hands - the whip for example. So a medium creature could use a large whip with 2 hands. With the Sages proposal it would provide reach, without out - technically not.

While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach. An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics
added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hmmm I disagree.

He was asked using MG & PB as a reference but hsi answere talked about reach weapons in general.

Thus his answer addresses potential future questions about such weapons not related to MG & PB since he never addressed "how a medium character could wield a large weapon" and basically the following is how he feels a reasonable approach to covering larger reach weapons.

and

Note that not all reach weapons require 2 hands - the whip for example.

I noted that myself in previous posts.

But you should note the original question specifically asked about a human with MG wielding a ranseur- a 2 handed reach weapon (the questioner was either unconcerned about or ignorant of the existence of reach weapons like the whip). Without MG or PB, he couldn't wield such a weapon at all, as the Sage noted.

With MG or PB, he can wield the weapon normally, which would include Reach.

He never specifically addressed MG or PB because at least one of those was mentioned specifically in the question, which provides the context for his musing on how a M character would use an overized reach weapon. His answer's mere existence implies consideration of the question's language, and against the backdrop of the question, he is obviously considering MG and probably PB as well.

At any rate, we're now discussing this in circles, neither convincing the other. The point remains, however, that there are 2 different schools of thought on the matter, and the OP should pick one consistently apply it.

 

[Slushpuppiet]

Solved?

I'm not sure if this whole mess has been solved or not, but has anyone checked Arms and Equipment guide, page 5? Says each size increase of a weapon gives it +5 more feet. Hope that helps!

Edit: Also, the PHB I believe says -4 to attack rolls for each size the weapon is out of your norm. Thus a tiny dagger in a humans hands is at -4, just the same as a medium dagger would be. (As the base dagger is small i believe)

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not sure if this whole mess has been solved or not, but has anyone checked Arms and Equipment guide, page 5? Says each size increase of a weapon gives it +5 more feet. Hope that helps!

Edit: Also, the PHB I believe says -4 to attack rolls for each size the weapon is out of your norm. Thus a tiny dagger in a humans hands is at -4, just the same as a medium dagger would be. (As the base dagger is small i believe)

The Arms and Equipment Guide is a 3.0 book - the rules (and feats - specifically Monkey Grip) changed in 3.5.

3.5 PHB (pg 113) states that

A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of the intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.

Also a dagger is a "light" weapon in 3.5. "Size" is something specific to what size of creature the weapon was intended to be used for - so you do not have daggers that are considered "small" - they are "light" and can be of various sizes (tiny, on up). A short sword is likewise a "light" weapon and so too is a rapier (for most purposes).

Oh and welcome to the boards.