The MV elite owlbear's base damage is x2 that of a Brute of its level. Then if it APs it does another x2, for x4 base damage, in 1 round, vs 1 target. It's extremely nasty; arguably overpowered IMO. I'd hesitate to use it on PCs below 7th or 8th level, anyway.
Need to sub some low level monsters with higher level ones
- Thread starter NewJeffCT
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The MV elite owlbear's base damage is x2 that of a Brute of its level. Then if it APs it does another x2, for x4 base damage, in 1 round, vs 1 target. It's extremely nasty; arguably overpowered IMO. I'd hesitate to use it on PCs below 7th or 8th level, anyway.
Thanks for the warning. My group is 6 players, though, and includes 2 strikers and 1 1/2 defenders. So, they're usually pretty adept at both dealing out damage & taking it.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I agree completely with this. scaling standard critters to minions is a great way to keep the world alive.
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Herremann the Wise
First Post
Hello NewJeffCT,
I think IanB has nailed this one. Chances are that your PCs are going to:
[sblock]
- deal with the first chunk of bandits at the Thorn River Camp.
- be on the lookout for Svetlana's ring and be directed by captured bandits of it being stolen by mites/(or spriggans).
- find the old sycamore tree that is home to the spriggans and release the captured Kobold Mikmek who will "assist".
- destroy the rest of the spriggans who will also have quite a few real nasty "pets" and realise that the Kobolds have the ring.
[/sblock]The main dynamic to be wary of is to make sure that the kobolds are enough of a threat to the Spriggans that an ongoing war between the two is plausible - even if and particularly in terms of Tartuk's motives this war is a losing one for the kobolds. If followed this "typical" way, then chances are that the PCs will never actually fight the kobolds except for Tartuk (who can be easily made significantly tougher based on his background). If they do fight the kobolds, it will be a trivial victory for the PCs that can be made a little more interesting by adding a few pets as appropriate as well as many terrain-based traps and stuff.
Glad to see you're going full steam ahead with this - I hope you enjoy.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I think IanB has nailed this one. Chances are that your PCs are going to:
[sblock]
- deal with the first chunk of bandits at the Thorn River Camp.
- be on the lookout for Svetlana's ring and be directed by captured bandits of it being stolen by mites/(or spriggans).
- find the old sycamore tree that is home to the spriggans and release the captured Kobold Mikmek who will "assist".
- destroy the rest of the spriggans who will also have quite a few real nasty "pets" and realise that the Kobolds have the ring.
[/sblock]The main dynamic to be wary of is to make sure that the kobolds are enough of a threat to the Spriggans that an ongoing war between the two is plausible - even if and particularly in terms of Tartuk's motives this war is a losing one for the kobolds. If followed this "typical" way, then chances are that the PCs will never actually fight the kobolds except for Tartuk (who can be easily made significantly tougher based on his background). If they do fight the kobolds, it will be a trivial victory for the PCs that can be made a little more interesting by adding a few pets as appropriate as well as many terrain-based traps and stuff.
Glad to see you're going full steam ahead with this - I hope you enjoy.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Glad to see you're going full steam ahead with this - I hope you enjoy.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Thanks - I must spread XP around before awarding more to you.
I think I can make the kobolds a pretty good threat to the PCs (and the mites) but taking some of the advice above about making the level 1 warriors into level 9 minions, and also bumping up some of the others a level or two (i.e, the kobold chieftain from level 5 to level 7). Plus, making it a size small lair and giving them some memorable traps/defenses.
ok, how about for kobold leaders? Anything higher level that I can substitute for the kobold leaders in DDI (that are level 5)? I was thinking gnomes, as they are also size small. However, the gnome leader/controller types are either level 6 or level 14 in DDI, and I was looking for something in the middle.
Pog from DDI seems pretty good (is that a monster type, or is Pog the name of a goblin) - level 9 elite controller. Almost seems like an advanced Goblin Hexer.
Any other ideas? I would say in the level 9-11 range to make them legitimate threats.
Thanks
Pog from DDI seems pretty good (is that a monster type, or is Pog the name of a goblin) - level 9 elite controller. Almost seems like an advanced Goblin Hexer.
Any other ideas? I would say in the level 9-11 range to make them legitimate threats.
Thanks
gomes are monsters, rawr
An other option in probably either of the two roles may be gnomes. After all they are monsters now. Moreover, they have a pretty strong fey flavor with their ability to appear and disappear, they are known to be in conflict with other fey and they also can fill the cutesy role of potential, but never quite trustworthy, allies.
There are 14 gnomes in the compendium with levels 5-14, which should work fine.
An other option in probably either of the two roles may be gnomes. After all they are monsters now. Moreover, they have a pretty strong fey flavor with their ability to appear and disappear, they are known to be in conflict with other fey and they also can fill the cutesy role of potential, but never quite trustworthy, allies.
There are 14 gnomes in the compendium with levels 5-14, which should work fine.
Badwe
First Post
I've got a few recommendations for modding your levels and/or getting the feel right. First, your PCs are going to know that kobolds are weaklings so however your math shakes out, I would recommend most fights have at least 2 monsters for every 1 PC. This will maintain the feel that kobolds are low level, since the PCs can mow a lot of them down.
Next, if you're willing to do the work, applying elite templates is equivalent (in terms of XP) to adding 4 levels to a monster. IE: if you have a level 3 or 4 kobold and apply an elite template, he will suck up as much XP as a level 7 or 8. For this you will have to be careful to make sure these guys can still hit your PCs.
Minions work in a similar concept. minions are 1/4th the XP of the same level normal and every 4 levels XP doubles, so as people havem mentioned a level 1 kobold is worth the same XP as a level 9 minion.
If you're feeling a bit lazier than that, but still willing to do some modding, while the original DMG recommends not modifying by more than 7 levels, the new math works out that for every level you shave off/add on 1 to hit, AC, NADs, and damage (previously damage was 1/2 but it is now just 1 like everything else). Then do 10 HP per level or look up the specifics if you want (but you don't have to). Chris perkins seems to be comfortable modding things up and down as much as 10 levels and letting it ride. It's going to be a bit off, but it does work. a week aggo I modded an elder blue dragon, lvl 20, down to level 14 to challenge a party of lvl 11. It was very swingy and the party nearly died, but they also finished him off without using up all their dailies. Long story short, it works.
If you're feeling even lazier than that: as others have said, a kobold is anything that's size small and shifts as a minor action. You can literally take any monster, strip off existing racial powers, and do this and it works.
Finally, if you're still trying to preserve the flavor of kobolds, I used this trick to great effect: swarms. The name escapes me, but there is a swarm of floating heads from open grave or something. If you envision the individual heads as kobolds the powers all make a decent amount of sense. Increase the size of the swarm to huge and it's like the PCs are fighting an entire army of kobolds.
Hope this helps.
Next, if you're willing to do the work, applying elite templates is equivalent (in terms of XP) to adding 4 levels to a monster. IE: if you have a level 3 or 4 kobold and apply an elite template, he will suck up as much XP as a level 7 or 8. For this you will have to be careful to make sure these guys can still hit your PCs.
Minions work in a similar concept. minions are 1/4th the XP of the same level normal and every 4 levels XP doubles, so as people havem mentioned a level 1 kobold is worth the same XP as a level 9 minion.
If you're feeling a bit lazier than that, but still willing to do some modding, while the original DMG recommends not modifying by more than 7 levels, the new math works out that for every level you shave off/add on 1 to hit, AC, NADs, and damage (previously damage was 1/2 but it is now just 1 like everything else). Then do 10 HP per level or look up the specifics if you want (but you don't have to). Chris perkins seems to be comfortable modding things up and down as much as 10 levels and letting it ride. It's going to be a bit off, but it does work. a week aggo I modded an elder blue dragon, lvl 20, down to level 14 to challenge a party of lvl 11. It was very swingy and the party nearly died, but they also finished him off without using up all their dailies. Long story short, it works.
If you're feeling even lazier than that: as others have said, a kobold is anything that's size small and shifts as a minor action. You can literally take any monster, strip off existing racial powers, and do this and it works.
Finally, if you're still trying to preserve the flavor of kobolds, I used this trick to great effect: swarms. The name escapes me, but there is a swarm of floating heads from open grave or something. If you envision the individual heads as kobolds the powers all make a decent amount of sense. Increase the size of the swarm to huge and it's like the PCs are fighting an entire army of kobolds.
Hope this helps.
OnlineDM
Adventurer
As for the owlbear question, I debated this myself back in November - those creatures can be nasty! I was considering throwing an encounter of two adult owlbears (the elites) against a party of four sixth-level characters. I ended up backing off and going with one adult and two young owlbears. It was still a nasty battle, but the party survived.
Here is the post where I recapped the encounter.
Here is the post where I recapped the encounter.
IanB
First Post
I suggest avoiding using an owlbear in the mite/kobold part of the path as an encounter with a particular owlbear is quite important later and you don't want to go to that same well too often.
I think "Pog" in the monster builder is just a named goblin. He should work ok. A couple other options I found in the builder, if you go for an artillery type monster instead of a controller:
- advanced gnome entropist (they are level 8 to start, so tack a couple levels and elite it, maybe using a template of some kind.)
- Three-Tooth (no idea the source but appears to be a level 10 elite kobold artillery)
- Gurn Sirensong (again no idea the original source, but he's a level 9 elite gnome artillery with wizard-y powers like magic missile)
I think "Pog" in the monster builder is just a named goblin. He should work ok. A couple other options I found in the builder, if you go for an artillery type monster instead of a controller:
- advanced gnome entropist (they are level 8 to start, so tack a couple levels and elite it, maybe using a template of some kind.)
- Three-Tooth (no idea the source but appears to be a level 10 elite kobold artillery)
- Gurn Sirensong (again no idea the original source, but he's a level 9 elite gnome artillery with wizard-y powers like magic missile)
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