Needs quite a bit of Dming help!!!

[Hussar]

Arrgghh. The dreaded Paladin trap. The death of games since 1976.

As someone who actually likes playing paladins, I've seen this sort of thing more times than I can count. Honestly, from what you've stated here, it's not like his actions cannot be justified. The mayor is ordering a DEVIL around to maintain law in the town. The paladin can pretty easily justify attacking the mayor here, even if the mayor is just a victim. Paladin's can kill non-evil and even good targets in such a case.

As far as exhaulted feats go, meh, again, don't punish him for making choices. Let it ride. Or, if it really bothers you, take the book out of the mix. It won't end the game to do so.

My big question is, how did you have the NPC's react to all this. The paladin just attacked the leader of their community. That should have consequences. Not, "Ok, go to jail and have a time out in the corner" kind of consequences, but actual role play stuff - people won't talk to him, they cross the street to avoid the "enforcer style" paladin.

In other words, if he wants to be a Hanging Judge sort of paladin, treat him as such.

 

[pemerton]

The key to playing (and DMing) a paladin (especially if exalted feats are in play) is FULL agreement between the DM and the player as to what lawful good is.

Arrgghh. The dreaded Paladin trap. The death of games since 1976.

I had a fairly recent thread explaining my deep dislike of GM-adjudicated alignment, for this very reason. But if for some reason the group won't discard it, then Mort is (in my view) quite correct to say that the player has to have a say.

My big question is, how did you have the NPC's react to all this. The paladin just attacked the leader of their community. That should have consequences. Not, "Ok, go to jail and have a time out in the corner" kind of consequences, but actual role play stuff - people won't talk to him, they cross the street to avoid the "enforcer style" paladin.

In other words, if he wants to be a Hanging Judge sort of paladin, treat him as such.

Good stuff. Too often people talk about "consequences" as a euphamism for "punishment by the GM". I think that's silly and will tend to wreck the game. But the sort of stuff you talk about is what makes a game - because it validates the player's choice by using it to open up more thematic material for him/her to work with.

This is much more interesting than the GM (or other players) using alignment mechanics to hose a player. (If there really is an issue about playstyle and social contract, resolve it out of game like sensible people!)

 

[NewJeffCT]

He then went on to punch her until she was unconscious. Then ties her up, and forces his philosophies upon her until she starts to change. He had to do this for at least 3 months before she would start to change alignment.

The other incident was when they were in this town, and the mayor decided that a change was needed. He said that there was to be a new law system in town. Then a bone devil jumped into the area, and attacked the party. During the fight, the paladin instructed the ranger, to shoot an arrow at the mayor, who was still there watching the fight. Now, the mayor was not evil in any means. he was at that time being possessed by a mindflayer. So, i did not expect them to know that.

In regards to the first incident - did he keep the sorceress tied up for those entire three months? If so, that is an outright evil act. If he was a true follower of a lawful good deity, he should trust that his good and lawful beliefs should be enough to convert the sorceress on their own and within the laws instead of converting her through bondage and forcing her to listen to his preaching.

The second incident is at least unlawful, as the paladin has no reason to suspect the mayor of being evil, and shooting an arrow at a person just for watching the fight is quite out of line, unless local law allows people to shoot arrows at local politicians. The mayor could have been there for any number of reasons - paralyzed with fear, dominated, charmed, etc

I would first review the specifics of the paladin's god - domains, special tenets, etc - and then sit down with the player out of game and then discuss with him his idea of a paladin and lawful good behavior, and then try to relate it to how you feel about paladins and how his deity's followers should behave.

 

[Hussar]

In regards to the first incident - did he keep the sorceress tied up for those entire three months? If so, that is an outright evil act. If he was a true follower of a lawful good deity, he should trust that his good and lawful beliefs should be enough to convert the sorceress on their own and within the laws instead of converting her through bondage and forcing her to listen to his preaching.

The second incident is at least unlawful, as the paladin has no reason to suspect the mayor of being evil, and shooting an arrow at a person just for watching the fight is quite out of line, unless local law allows people to shoot arrows at local politicians. The mayor could have been there for any number of reasons - paralyzed with fear, dominated, charmed, etc

I would first review the specifics of the paladin's god - domains, special tenets, etc - and then sit down with the player out of game and then discuss with him his idea of a paladin and lawful good behavior, and then try to relate it to how you feel about paladins and how his deity's followers should behave.

Why is this an evil act? Restraining someone that can shoot fire from their fingertips, teleport and various other magical effects makes a great deal of sense.

Then again, he'd be perfectly in his rights to simply cut off her hands and tongue and save the trouble. Pretty much in keeping with medieval punishments of the time.

Lawful has nothing to do with following local laws, so, your second point is difficult to use. The mayor is using a devil to enforce law in a town. Executing the mayor on the spot is pretty much the lightest punishment he could expect.

I think this paints Pemerton's case in glowing colors. You think it's evil, therefore it's evil. You can make a pretty good case for this not being evil as well and it's not something that can be resolved. So, it goes around and around and around until the game blows up.

If you want paladins to follow your specific code, hand the player a sheet outlining that code and tell him up front that none of this is up for discussion. You're far better off in the long run.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Why is this an evil act? Restraining someone that can shoot fire from their fingertips, teleport and various other magical effects makes a great deal of sense.
.

Restraining her is fine - until she either converts or a punishment is decided - but, tying her up & keeping her that way for at least 3 months and forcing your views onto her is extreme. I don't see any grey area on that.

Also, the original post did not say the mayor was controlling the devil. It only said the mayor was "still there watching the fight" How does one jump to the conclusion that the mayor was controlling the devil? What if the devil, or somebody hidden/invisible had cast "Hold Person" or some other type of spell that did not allow the mayor to move? For all the paladin knew, the mayor could have been held or otherwise restrained because the mayor was the real target of the bone devil.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So i am asking for your guy's opinions on the matter.

Hello Finnie,

I think you are looking at one of the classic issues that comes up not only with paladins but with "exalted" material. In essence, you have one player using the Book of Exalted Deeds and it would seem no one else - are other players utilizing this book? This makes for really awkward roleplaying with one player having their character consistently judged by the other players and DM with the usual reaction of not living up to the expectations.

Having played an Exalted Paladin for several years when that book was released, my advice would be to cancel use of the book unless the entire party are exalted - an exalted campaign. Otherwise too many headaches as you are finding. A single exalted character ends up monopolizing the DM's time, other player's attention as well as the general spotlight. Better to nip this in the bud.

I think perhaps the best thing you can do as a DM in your position is to foster party unity. Part of this will be encouraging the Paladin's player to be very mindful of their effect on the other players and the direction of the module and campaign and to ensure they are supporting the party, rather than dominating it.

I think others have outlined the other thing you need to do - agree on a code, making it as simple as possible as well as being roughly in line with the expectations of the other players, yours and the paladin's player.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hussar]

The other incident was when they were in this town, and the mayor decided that a change was needed. He said that there was to be a new law system in town. Then a bone devil jumped into the area, and attacked the party.

That sounds a lot like the Mayor is in control of the devil.

Paladins are allowed to be wrong.

My solution to this would be to ask the player to justify his actions. Can he come up with a justification that, while I might not agree with it, at least does explain his actions within the context of the situation? If not, ok, then it's time to get out the hammer. Otherwise, err on the player's side and keep on going.

It's his character. Let him define what that character thinks is good and just. He's obviously going for a Punisher style paladin here. Treat him as such and move on.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I think others have outlined the other thing you need to do - agree on a code, making it as simple as possible as well as being roughly in line with the expectations of the other players, yours and the paladin's player.

I would agree on this as well - make the code simple and make sure it follows the tenets of the paladin's deity (i.e, the Lawful Good deity of Home, Family and Hard Work might have different ideals than the Lawful Good deity of Justice and Righteous Vengeance)

 

[Stoat]

Sit down with the player and write down the Paladin's code. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. I'd suggest a bullet list of 6-10 rules that the Paladin follows. Address topics like the treatment of hostages, the treatment of hostile noncombatants, the use of deceit in pursuit of the greater good, etc.

In short, make sure you and the player on the same page. Then hold the player to the code he helped create.