Negative Levels or permanent Con drain and Death

[Hypersmurf]

OK the fact that you have only one CON point is really considerable, but lets assume you lose that point of CON before your CON is restored to one. But if your raise with True Ressurrection you won't have this problem because you won't lose a LVL for being dead.

True Resurrection works for the Con-drain scenario, yeah.

Resurrection, I'm not sure. If you're level 1 and you lose that point of Con for being Raised, it's quite specific in the "Bringing Back the Dead" section that nothing can restore that point.

So I see your damaged-to-0 Con going back up to 1... and then the irreversible Con drop kicks in, and you get knocked back to 0 (and dead).

True Resurrection doesn't help in the Enervation scenario, because it's not the level-loss-from-being-raised that's killing you, it's the negative levels from the spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would say that line is in reference to dieing due to losing CON. Can you find me something that says (or an example) of something losing CON points due to death?

Yup. Read Raise Dead - if you're level 1 and you're raised, you don't lose a level, you lose a point of Con instead. It's irreversible - Wish or Restoration can't fix it.

-Hyp.

 

[hammymchamham]

Yup. Read Raise Dead - if you're level 1 and you're raised, you don't lose a level, you lose a point of Con instead. It's irreversible - Wish or Restoration can't fix it.

-Hyp.

But you aren;t losing the CON due to death, but due to the spell Raise Dead.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But you aren't losing the CON due to death, but due to the spell Raise Dead.

"The passage from life to death and back again is a wrenching journey for a being's soul."

Put it this way - if you have 10 Con, and the Fang Dragon does 9 Con damage, it is all valid for Restoration, right?

Whether or not you die, you still lose the Con. It's not loss of Con due to death. (If he does 10 damage, it's still not loss of Con due to death, it's death due to loss of Con, but that's not important right now )

With the Raise Dead thing, you only lose the Con because you died and then came back. If you didn't die, it couldn't happen. Therefore, it's loss of Con due to death.

-Hyp.

 

[Shayuri]

This may not be exactly the sort of reply you're seeking, but hopefully it'll help some.

Firstly, the level draining effect from Ennervation is quite temporary...I see no reason that death would change that. After a few hours pass, the excess "negative energy" passes from the corpse just as it would from a living body. So there's that.

More to the point though, and I fully agree that this is not really made clear in the rules, I've always been of the opinion that when you die things kind of "reset," physically, at least. Which is to say that negative levels and magic stat draining effects cease to operate. Those things typically target only the living, after all. Once a being is no longer living, he's also no longer a valid target for that effect. Thus, the effect ceases to operate. Granted, that cessation in no way alters the dead status it brought about.

For example, a wraith ecto-claws our buddy Bob. Bob is lamentably first level. It drains him down to 1 Con before we can zorch it...but unfortunately a goblin with a crossbow finishes him off in his weakened state. Note that Bob died this way because otherwise he'd become a wraith, which complicates things a bit.

Can Bob be raised?

The rules are not clear, but I believe the answer is (should be) yes.

A corpse has no Con score. When Bob became a corpse, he lost his Con score. No Con score means he can't be affected by Con drain. Raising him restores his Con score...not to the temporarily reduced value (because that effect ended when he lost his Con score), but to its original value. Then he loses a point, but is very much alive.

Similarly, Wizzy the Amazing Archmage does his horrid TimeStop + 4 Maximized Energy Drains, inflicting a whopping 32 negative levels on his rival...Tim. Tim is very powerful...but he's not level 33. Thus, Tim is dead.

Normally those negative levels would persist for 24 hours, allow Fort saves, and THEN become permanant...but in this case that's moot. He's dead, and he ain't comin' back. But can Tim be raised?

Again, I think the answer is yes.

Dead things don't have levels. When Tim becomes a corpse, he becomes an invalid target for negative levels. Thus, the negative levels are no longer affecting him. They don't magically reappear when Tim is resurrected. Not unless Wizzy shows up again and starts blastin'.

This is the way I'd do it mainly because it seems fair, it avoids a lot of thorny problems (that you yourself have pointed out) and it's at least nominally defensible using existing rules. I'd be the first to admit it's pretty much an individual interpretation...there is no explicit coverage of that particular issue that I'm aware of in the books. But it's a reasonable inference, I think, and it's fair in that it doesn't penalize characters who die by some means and not others.

Of course, a smart caster always has a Clone handy anyway. That neatly sidesteps all woes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Firstly, the level draining effect from Ennervation is quite temporary...I see no reason that death would change that. After a few hours pass, the excess "negative energy" passes from the corpse just as it would from a living body. So there's that.

The inclusion of the phrase "Assuming he survives" muddies things, though.

The spell says the negative levels go away "assuming he survives".

Which is to say that negative levels and magic stat draining effects cease to operate. Those things typically target only the living, after all. Once a being is no longer living, he's also no longer a valid target for that effect. Thus, the effect ceases to operate.

Geas/Quest : Target, one living creature. Can be dispelled with Remove Curse.

Raise Dead: In the process of raising the subject, curses are not undone.

Do you feel death should void a Quest?

But it's a reasonable inference, I think, and it's fair in that it doesn't penalize characters who die by some means and not others.

Like, say, a character killed by a death effect cannot be brought back with Raise Dead? A character whose body is destroyed cannot be brought back with Resurrection?

-Hyp.

 

[melkoriii]

This may not be exactly the sort of reply you're seeking, but hopefully it'll help some.

Firstly, the level draining effect from Ennervation is quite temporary...I see no reason that death would change that. After a few hours pass, the excess "negative energy" passes from the corpse just as it would from a living body. So there's that.

More to the point though, and I fully agree that this is not really made clear in the rules, I've always been of the opinion that when you die things kind of "reset," physically, at least. Which is to say that negative levels and magic stat draining effects cease to operate. Those things typically target only the living, after all. Once a being is no longer living, he's also no longer a valid target for that effect. Thus, the effect ceases to operate. Granted, that cessation in no way alters the dead status it brought about.

For example, a wraith ecto-claws our buddy Bob. Bob is lamentably first level. It drains him down to 1 Con before we can zorch it...but unfortunately a goblin with a crossbow finishes him off in his weakened state. Note that Bob died this way because otherwise he'd become a wraith, which complicates things a bit.

Can Bob be raised?

The rules are not clear, but I believe the answer is (should be) yes.

A corpse has no Con score. When Bob became a corpse, he lost his Con score. No Con score means he can't be affected by Con drain. Raising him restores his Con score...not to the temporarily reduced value (because that effect ended when he lost his Con score), but to its original value. Then he loses a point, but is very much alive.

Similarly, Wizzy the Amazing Archmage does his horrid TimeStop + 4 Maximized Energy Drains, inflicting a whopping 32 negative levels on his rival...Tim. Tim is very powerful...but he's not level 33. Thus, Tim is dead.

Normally those negative levels would persist for 24 hours, allow Fort saves, and THEN become permanant...but in this case that's moot. He's dead, and he ain't comin' back. But can Tim be raised?

Again, I think the answer is yes.

Dead things don't have levels. When Tim becomes a corpse, he becomes an invalid target for negative levels. Thus, the negative levels are no longer affecting him. They don't magically reappear when Tim is resurrected. Not unless Wizzy shows up again and starts blastin'.

This is the way I'd do it mainly because it seems fair, it avoids a lot of thorny problems (that you yourself have pointed out) and it's at least nominally defensible using existing rules. I'd be the first to admit it's pretty much an individual interpretation...there is no explicit coverage of that particular issue that I'm aware of in the books. But it's a reasonable inference, I think, and it's fair in that it doesn't penalize characters who die by some means and not others.

Of course, a smart caster always has a Clone handy anyway. That neatly sidesteps all woes.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking just didnt get it accros liek I wanted to.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I think Hypersmurf is right, your way is far too easy. I have to think about maybe still for a while, but till now I'm quite unsure how to decide.
Any way the case is worth thinking about it.
Char has a 0 in HD/LVLs and CON pretty battle damaged
we use Rasie Dead:
He is now 1st LVL because he can't be lower when he lives, now the bad thing happens, still his CON is restored to 1 but he loses one CON point because he can't lose LVLs without dying, now you have to decide, at which point he loses this 1 single CON point, before he is back to life and before his CON is restored to 1. In this case it would be meaningless but otherwise he would instantly die. How does it actually work, I don't know, really. I think none of the other spells would work either except for Reincarnate which means you get a new body and your physical abilities are new rolled. Thats what I assume. Wish and Miracle should work anyway.

 

[Shayuri]

The inclusion of the phrase "Assuming he survives" muddies things, though.

The spell says the negative levels go away "assuming he survives".

-- True enough. I can only assume the intent was to try to drive home the idea that the dead creature doesn't return to life when the levels vanish.

Geas/Quest : Target, one living creature. Can be dispelled with Remove Curse.

Raise Dead: In the process of raising the subject, curses are not undone.

Do you feel death should void a Quest?

-- A very good point. My gut answer is 'no,' though that does seem out of step with my earlier arguments. If I felt compelled to debate the whole mess, I'd bring up the phrase regarding magical diseases and curses as a specific exception to the "death ends effects" clause, due to their inclusion in the spell's description. Unfortunately, the next logical step from there is to squabble over whether or not ability drain and negative levels constitute "magic diseases and curses." That's not a can of worms I feel the need to open just now.

--Instead I'll just say that my decision regarding this situation was based as much on avoiding a rules situation that strikes me as being predicated by a relatively minor oversight in the description for the various spells and conditions under scrutiny. In the absence of a definitive ruling, I picked one that I felt would cause the least problems in the long run, then made up a necessarily flimsy justification for it.

Like, say, a character killed by a death effect cannot be brought back with Raise Dead? A character whose body is destroyed cannot be brought back with Resurrection?

-- Those are specific limitations of the spells in question, not of the conditions. A player can read the book and know in advance that if he gets snuffed by a Finger of Death, he'll need a Resurrection or better to come back. It's spelled out in black and white. No reaching for esoteric interpretations needed. But there's nothing in the book that says that getting whomped by an Ennervation or Energy Drain is perma-death. And while I can see how someone who sits down and studies the rules for awhile, and then thinks about them carefully, might come to that conclusion, it's certainly not immediately obvious or implicit. Thus, someone who encounters that ruling is likely to feel a bit punished.

Of course, if you make it clear in advance, that's fine. Though it makes Ennervation a LOT more powerful than it used to be. It also increases the threat level of Con and level draining beasties considerably.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's not a can of worms I feel the need to open just now.

The way I see it, a target for a spell generally only needs to fulfil the requirements at time of casting... for example, "any number of creatures, no two of which may be more than 30' apart" - the spell doesn't end if someone steps 10' further away.

On the other hand, if you cast Levitate on someone and they subsequently cast Ironbody... by that ruling you could still lift them. Levitate doesn't have a limit on what it can lift, only on what it can target... and they were within the target weight limit when you cast the spell.

So there might be flaws in the reasoning...

But there's nothing in the book that says that getting whomped by an Ennervation or Energy Drain is perma-death. Of course, if you make it clear in advance, that's fine. Though it makes Ennervation a LOT more powerful than it used to be. It also increases the threat level of Con and level draining beasties considerably.

Although at present, there's... what, three forms of perma-death in the whole game? Death by age, death by Barghest, and death by Charnel Fire?

(I suppose there's death by poverty, but that one's theoretically curable )

I don't know that having a less esoteric way to kill someone forever is a Bad Thing.

-Hyp.