Neil Gaiman: Badly Overated?

[WizarDru]

I think Gaiman has brilliant ideas, and excellent dialogue and prose...but his actual pure ficiton work varies. The Sandman was brilliant for a number of reasons, and pointing out that it followed late behind Dark Knight and Watchmen misses that it was immensely popular (moreso than either of those two) and had even wider penetration outside of the comics field than either of them. The Vertigo comics line wouldn't exist now, if not for Gaiman (and missing things like 'Y, the Last Man' or any number of titles would be a shame).

Michael Tree also makes a good point: Gaiman is witty, well-spoken, very charismatic and an all-around decent person. On the limited occasions I've had to encounter him personally, he was very nice. I remember when he came to Fat Jack's Comics in Philly, and there was a line out the door and down the block....he was only scheduled to be there for three hours doing signings. Gaiman sent someone down the line to personally assure everyone that he wasn't leaving until everyone had gotten an autograph...and sure enough, he did just that. (And he was quite amused when I asked for a Mad Hettie quote on one of my comics, and even took the time to explain it to my wife).

Neverwhere was a great idea that ran into trouble with production...I've never read the book, though I understand he did things there that were cut from the production, and put some things back that were changed against his preference. For a low-budget BBC prodcution thought, it's great fun. That may just be the Dr. Who fan in me, talking.

 

[barsoomcore]

I pointed out that Sandman followed Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns to make the point that it cannot be called revolutionary for "creating" the adult-oriented graphic novel market. It was not revolutionary, or at least not because it was an adult-oriented graphic novel -- those had been massively popular for several years BEFORE Sandman appeared. It may have been better than those (matter of taste), and even more popular than those (but I bet it wasn't...), but it still wasn't "revolutionary" for that reason.

And Neil Gaiman certainly does seem like just about the nicest guy in writing. His weblog is witty, charming, thoughtful and makes me like him. WizarDru's story is by no means unique -- that sounds like Mr. Gaiman all over to me.

Oh, and I'm surprised that discussions of Alan Moore haven't mentioned either Swamp Thing or From Hell. The latter stacks up with Miller and Sienkiewicz's Elektra: Assassin as maybe the greatest comic work I've ever read, and the former is what he was really known for before Watchmen came out.

 

[WizarDru]

Oh, and I'm surprised that discussions of Alan Moore haven't mentioned either Swamp Thing or From Hell. The latter stacks up with Miller and Sienkiewicz's Elektra: Assassin as maybe the greatest comic work I've ever read, and the former is what he was really known for before Watchmen came out.

Moore's Swamp Thing run may very have been one of the greatest comics ever written, no question. Moore turned the whole idea of superheroes on its ear. I remember his version of the Justice League (their descriptions were stunning) and the outstanding first appearance of the The Demon. The best pre-relaunch version of Lex Luthor appeared in the fantastic story when Abbie is arrested for 'indecency' charges for hugging Alec/Swamp Thing, and his one man war on Gotham. Complete with John Totleben art. Outstanding.

From Hell, like Big Numbers, was too dense and unapproachable, to me. Promethea, on the other hand, is just brilliant.

You're right, though. The adult graphic novel was a done deal by the time Sandman rose to prominence. But I'd argue that it peaked a great deal higher and longer than its predecessors, based on my experience....but that's hardly universal, now is it?

 

[Olive]

I pointed out that Sandman followed Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns to make the point that it cannot be called revolutionary for "creating" the adult-oriented graphic novel market. It was not revolutionary, or at least not because it was an adult-oriented graphic novel -- those had been massively popular for several years BEFORE Sandman appeared. It may have been better than those (matter of taste), and even more popular than those (but I bet it wasn't...), but it still wasn't "revolutionary" for that reason.

Wasn't it revolutionary at least in part because it was an ongoing story that had a definite end planned from the outset?

Oh, and I'm surprised that discussions of Alan Moore haven't mentioned either Swamp Thing or From Hell. The latter stacks up with Miller and Sienkiewicz's Elektra: Assassin as maybe the greatest comic work I've ever read, and the former is what he was really known for before Watchmen came out.

I cannot believe I failed to mention From Hell. Wombat, ignore what I said about Moore being mostly known for his early stuff, From Hell is probably the best comic ever.

Since we're talking Moore, I don't think he';s trying very hard just at the moment. His America's Best Comics stuff seems a wee bit lazy, like he's jsut mucking around. I'm wondering if he's going to try anything else on the scale of From Hell, cos it's those sort of projects that he really shines at.

 

[barsoomcore]

Wasn't it revolutionary at least in part because it was an ongoing story that had a definite end planned from the outset?

Only in the sense that, say, Charles Dickens (among a bazillion others) hadn't been doing that -- and doing it as close to INFINITELY better as to make no odds -- a hundred years previously.

Yes, Charles Dickens is probably an INFINITELY better writer than Neil Gaiman. It's just a whole other ball game.

But very-long-running episodic stories with complete story arcs planned out? Hardly invented by Neil Gaiman, even in the comics world.

And again, I'm not saying Sandman wasn't great. I'm not even saying it wasn't better than Watchmen (it wasn't but I'm not saying that). I'm not even saying it wasn't revolutionary.

I'm just saying it wasn't revolutionary because it invented the adult graphic novel. And I'm going to now add that it also wasn't revolutionary because it invented the long-running episodic story. It may have been revolutionary for other reasons, but not those.

 

[barsoomcore]

WizarDru: it probably says it all to say that Big Numbers, had it been finished, would have almost certainly been so far above all other comics in my estimation that I wouldn't have even considered it a comic anymore. I LOVED Big Numbers. I didn't understand it, but I loved it.

Easily my favorite comic. Easily.

I still give Elektra: Assassin the nod simply because it was actually finished, but there's no doubt in my mind that BN would have wiped Miller off the floor.

 

[WizarDru]

WizarDru: it probably says it all to say that Big Numbers, had it been finished, would have almost certainly been so far above all other comics in my estimation that I wouldn't have even considered it a comic anymore. I LOVED Big Numbers. I didn't understand it, but I loved it.

Easily my favorite comic. Easily.

I still give Elektra: Assassin the nod simply because it was actually finished, but there's no doubt in my mind that BN would have wiped Miller off the floor.

I couldn't say, either way, honestly. I've only ever glanced at pieces of Elektra...and while I heard it was quite good, for some reason I never actually went round and read it. Part of it might be Bill Sienkiwicz....his artwork is very...volatile. I grew to truly dislike his work on New Mutants back in the day, even as I recognized that it was stunningly fresh.

I've only ever seen a little bit of BN, so I wasn't even sure if it had been finished or not. It was a bold attempt, but who knows? As for Moore's current work, I'd disagree on a couple of points, Olive. I think Moore's work on Promethea and Tom Strong (at least until I stopped picking monthlies up) was nothing short of brilliant, and Promethea some of his best work in a long time (though I've never read his Supreme stuff, which I understand is pretty good).

I may be coloring my judgement of Watchmen versus the Sandman by how they played out. I remember waiting with baited breath for months for the long delayed issues of Watchmen, and reading and rereading every issue, to pick up subtle nuances and recurring themes. It is, I agree, a better written work, more clearly literary. However, I think that the ending is somewhat muddled, whereas Sandman seemed to resonate better. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad, and probably says more about me than the works. I do recall that my commitment to Sandman was nothing like the Watchmen, so read into that what you will. I also take note that Moore has said on more than one occasion that he somewhat regrets that Watchmen may have "put a moral weight on comics that they were never meant to bear". I think his Tom Strong stuff is highly evocative of this concept.

Wow. I need to go pick up some collections today, I think.

 

[barsoomcore]

Yeah, Sienkiewicz generates strong reactions. I first encountered him in his New Mutants run and immediately fell in love. But it's not for everyone.

I'm a little iffy on Promethea. A little too lecturey for me, not enough story. Beautiful, and fascinating, but I want a little more oomph. But that's Moore for me -- lots of great ideas, sometimes not huge amounts of story.

 

[Olive]

But very-long-running episodic stories with complete story arcs planned out? Hardly invented by Neil Gaiman, even in the comics world.

Name one in the comics world? The onther main one I can think of is Cerebus, and Dave Sim has said that he changed that from a conan pisstake because he was inspired by Sandman... I seem to recall.

 

[Michael Tree]

Name one in the comics world? The onther main one I can think of is Cerebus, and Dave Sim has said that he changed that from a conan pisstake because he was inspired by Sandman... I seem to recall.

Not quite, considering that Cerebus evolved beyond a Conan pisstake almost a decade before Sandman began. Dave Sim has said since fairly early in the comic that it'll be limited to 300 issues, but I doubt that he had entire story arcs planned out that far in advance.