Nerfing Holy Weapon for Xanathar's Guide

[FrogReaver]

It's really not much better than elemental weapon once you factor in the +2 to hit.
Assuming a level 11+ paladin with improved smite.

holy weapon
2d8+5+2d8 * 60% accuracy = 13.8 damage per attack.
vs
elemental weapon
2d8+5+2d4 * 70% accuracy = 13.3 damage per attack.

So 1 damage per round more for a 5th level spell than a scaled up 3rd level one.

More importantly how much damage can said paladin instantly do with that 5th level slot at level 11? Isn't it like 5d8 for the spell slot + 1d8 for improved divine smite = 6d8?

Assuming 2 attacks a round at 60% accuracy and 2d8 extra damage per hit. It will take you nearly 3 turns to overtake the paladin that just used the slot to divine smite in damage (damage now is better than damage later is always important to keep in mind).

The spell has other considerations as well. It's concentration which gives it a good chance of ending early even for a 20 AC paladin even with a decent charisma for the bonus to saving throws. You can't wait for a crit to blow it and potentially skyrocket your damage. I'd say it's comparable enough to a divine smite at the same level.

 

[Gladius Legis]

It's really not much better than elemental weapon once you factor in the +2 to hit.
Assuming a level 11+ paladin with improved smite.

holy weapon
2d8+5+2d8 * 60% accuracy = 13.8 damage per attack.
vs
elemental weapon
2d8+5+2d4 * 70% accuracy = 13.3 damage per attack.

So 1 damage per round more for a 5th level spell than a scaled up 3rd level one.

On the other hand, if you already have a magical weapon (quite likely at Lv. 17), then Holy Weapon is strictly better. Elemental Weapon only works on nonmagical weapons, while Holy Weapon buffs magical weapons as well.

 

[Shasarak]

I say that I love my Holy Sword but that is not true. I only say that to get it into bed.

 

[jaelis]

Hunter’s Mark also lasts a hour and is just level 1. 1d6 to 2d8 doesn’t seem unreasonable for a 4-level bump.

 

[CapnZapp]

It literally cannot be overpowered, given that it requires Concentration.

(Yes, that was a tad overblown since a Concentration spell that lets you kill one creature within line of sight per round, no save, would be overpowered)

But in general the opportunity cost of not using your Concentration on something else is huge, and is subtracted from the spell's value.

For a Paladin this opportunity cost is lower (than for a Cleric), but so is the utility, given that a Paladin is, as a melee bruiser, likely to lose Concentration much faster than a ranged buffer like the Cleric.

 

[jgsugden]

Yeah - a melee based concentration spell is a hard sell.

For a vengeance paladin: Let's compare +2d8 per hit to Haste's extra attack. When you factor in the extra opportunity to smite... it is hard to pass up on that extra damage.

For other paladins: Yeah, this is a pretty decent use of a high level slot, and you may even be one of the few classes capable of maintaining the concentration while being beaten upon. Of course, you're talking about a 17th level or above paladin. And they only get 1 or 2 5th level slots... and they could be doing 6d8 on one attack with a smite using that slot. This is not an abusive spell in those hands.

For a cleric: You're likely casting this on someone else as you get so few attacks. A fighter that gets 4 or 5 attacks per round (3 attacks from multi+ reaction + bonus?) would get up to 10d8 bonus damage per round out of it - but that ties up your concentration which you could be using for so many other spells. Would that be better than a 5d8 Spirit Guardians catching all enemies in a 15' radius? Or banishing 2 creatures? And you're putting extra eggs in one basket. If that fighter gets held, knocked down, etc... you're out two significant resources... the fighter and your spell.

 

[Kyle Scheirmann]

You need to consider the smaller effects and the implication of conc. I would say if any of the enemies have a Int of 10 and a rudimentary understanding of magic they would know to attack the cleric if the enchanted player becomes too much of an issue. Not to mention the enchanted weapon gives off light for 60 ft. So if the players need to stealth whatsoever in between combats that would be nearly impossible in a dark dungeon or at night, forcing the player to drop it in between combats.
More so over the bonus damage/round is pretty comparable to other concentration spells of the same level. I would also somewhat argue that in some cases the 4th level cleric spell Guardian of faith is more useful as it doesnt require concentration, and once cast is basically a free stage hazard on the board that the player won't need to worry about upkeeping anymore.

 

[jasper]

I being the o mighty jerk jasper the jerkiest jerk dm, now declare Xanathar's Guide in the OP campaign as being not allowed.
There it be nerfed.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Dausuul]

But in general the opportunity cost of not using your Concentration on something else is huge, and is subtracted from the spell's value.

For a Paladin this opportunity cost is lower (than for a Cleric), but so is the utility, given that a Paladin is, as a melee bruiser, likely to lose Concentration much faster than a ranged buffer like the Cleric.

Agreed. Moreover, the paladin doesn't get to play with this toy until level 17, when the conversation is apt to go something like this:

"No, Bob, you do not get legendary actions when you true polymorph yourself into an adult red dragon. No. Sorry, final ruling. Jill, you're right that Pelor is outside his planar domain right now, you could summon him with gate, but do you really want to do that? He may be Lawful Good, but he's still a god, and they get tetchy when you yank them... well, yes, the fate of the world is... okay, fine. Oh, jeez, Lucy has a new paladin spell too? As if the wizard and the cleric weren't enough. What's this one do? Oh, 2d8 extra damage per hit? Sure, whatever. Now, Mark, let's talk about this thing where you get to take two turns at the start of every combat."