New article Design and Development Article on Magic Item Slots

[Voss]

Flobby-
Characterful ones. Sword of undead smiting: bonus damage vs undead. Maybe the equivalent of feats or powers. Or that grant feats or powers. Norse mythology has some good ones. Summon lightning. Blinding flash. Give it a good name and description and players might actually be impressed rather just 'Oh, another +1 sword? I stuff it in the bag of holding with the others'

 

[Rechan]

I think you're looking at it wrong. It seems like you're assuming that NPCs will come laden with magic items, like they did in 3e

I also have a problem with PCs come laden with magical items.

As I said, I thought 4e was going to correct this based on what the designers said.

 

[Flobby]

Flobby-
Characterful ones. Sword of undead smiting: bonus damage vs undead. Maybe the equivalent of feats or powers. Or that grant feats or powers. Norse mythology has some good ones. Summon lightning. Blinding flash. Give it a good name and description and players might actually be impressed rather just 'Oh, another +1 sword? I stuff it in the bag of holding with the others'

Thanks. But, and I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, wouldn't effects like that disrupt balance just the same if they weren't assumed in some way as a part of level advancement. Unless they automatically had hefty disadvantages...
And I'm not arguing at all that they would more interesting than a +1 sword.

Someone on this thread mentioned something about level adjustment for magic items. Thats sounded like a good idea. (Mostly because I though of a similar thing myself

 

[Zimri]

I also have a problem with PCs come laden with magical items.

As I said, I thought 4e was going to correct this based on what the designers said.

Where do your PCs get their magic items from ?

In my world it's from 1) Overcoming an NPC /monster and taking it's stuff or 2) Overcoming an NPC/monster, taking it's stuff, selling / bartering with it, and buying it.

If NPCs/ monsters are no longer carrying as much stuff (because NPCs and monsters are not built the same way PCs are) the amount of "stuff" goes down.

We have 3 "mathematically necessary" slots, and we have already seen a number of varied ways in this thread to work around those if you want them removed.

We have 5 "flavor" slots that "do not effect" the math. If you don't want them in your game don't use them. Nothing is forcing you to make them available.

As an aside I find it telling that in this thread the contributors can't even decide what it is we are coming at odds over. I've seen "christmas tree effect" defined 2 or 3 different ways until language and terms are agreed to does any side really have any hope of swaying the other.

As a further aside Kudos IrdaRanger that was full of awesome and wrapped in win.

 

[Voss]

You've got 5 other magic item slots for your trivial magic items. Why can't we have one slot that is for a guaranteed awesome item? Why do all slots have to be fillable with trivial crap? Why can't you have Bracers of Hitting Dudes With A Club instead of a ring? Why can't you have a Belt of Trivial Toughness instead of a ring? Why does it have to be a ring?

it doesn't. But there doesn't need to be a rule that explicitly says It Must Not Be. Thats designers imposing a *completely* arbitrary personal preference on the audience for no justifiable reason. Its like a rule declaring that all starting human characters *must* be between the age of 16 and 20. The game is not improved in any way by the lack of heroic tier rings. If you don't want them... fine. But thats as far as it really goes.

And your response to Rechan is assuming an awful lot. If the primary items are built into the math for the game, why would they be any less necessary for NPCs than PCs? Maybe they are, maybe not... but there isn't much reason to assume one way or the other.

@Zimri- they don't directly affect the math in a huge way. But if you think gloves that help attacks and belts that temporarily raise strength won't matter, I suspect you are in for a surprise.

 

[Rechan]

Where do your PCs get their magic items from ?

Family Heirloom. Given to them due to their sudden station. On loan by a benefactor organization so the PCs can accomplish a specific task. Going on quests for those items. Deals made with entities that possess them. Gifts.

In my world it's from 1) Overcoming an NPC /monster and taking it's stuff or 2) Overcoming an NPC/monster, taking it's stuff, selling / bartering with it, and buying it.

If NPCs/ monsters are no longer carrying as much stuff (because NPCs and monsters are not built the same way PCs are) the amount of "stuff" goes down.

I could argue that this could be accomplished with 3e. Tons of monsters don't have "stuff" to take; animals, vermin, magical beasts, oozes, and constructs do not wield any magical items or have treasure, period. Any "stuff" they have is just "Well, the DM rolled some numbers on the treasure chart, and it's just assumed that this crap just belonged to the victims, as somehow that cloak of elvenkind Wasn't torn apart by the owlbear when it tore apart its victim."

I dislike having to just assume that there's a small army of unlucky adventurers who get eaten by everything under the sun so that the PCs have magical gigaws to stuff in their golf bag.

 

[The Little Raven]

Thats designers imposing a *completely* arbitrary personal preference on the audience for no justifiable reason.

It's for no reason you will accept, which is completely removed from being justifiable. When you claim there is "no justifiable reason" before any official reason has been given, you're just showing that you've made up your mind, regardless of their reasoning.

The game is not improved in any way by the lack of heroic tier rings.

You don't know this. Without actually playing the game, you can't know this. You're going on your 3.X experience which treats rings very differently from 4e (and differently from previous editions, since in 2e and earlier, rings were far more substantial than the "+5 to Jump checks" crap they became in 3e).

And your response to Rechan is assuming an awful lot. If the primary items are built into the math for the game, why would they be any less necessary for NPCs than PCs? Maybe they are, maybe not... but there isn't much reason to assume one way or the other.

This makes it sound like you didn't even bother to read what I said.

(A) NPCs use monster rules.
(B) Monster rules are not balanced to require magic items as part of their statistics.
(C) NPCs, by using monster rules, are not balanced to require magic items as part of their statistics.

So, if A is true, and B is true, then C must be true as well. Arguing otherwise, when A and B have been clearly stated as true, is assuming things, rather than going by what information has already been released.

 

[The Little Raven]

I also have a problem with PCs come laden with magical items.

As I said, I thought 4e was going to correct this based on what the designers said.

Well, with only 3 item slots used for balance (with them limited to particular bonuses in order to keep that balance easier to maintain), and level-requirements for certain minimum bonuses, you can easily apply those bonuses without them getting items and use them as story points/quest rewards.

Unlike the previous edition, removing magic items from the game won't require you to rebalance the entire game to compensate. That's a huge step forward.

 

[Voss]

You're assuming A and B are true, which makes the conclusion suspect. I want to see these 'clearly stated' links, please

And fine, I, in my own very special personal opinion, don't find the game improved by the lack of heroic tier rings. And I don't even want a lot of magic items. But when you get right down to it, their reasoning doesn't matter to me. Only the mechanics they put forth.

 

[Rechan]

Well, with only 3 item slots used for balance (with them limited to particular bonuses in order to keep that balance easier to maintain), and level-requirements for certain minimum bonuses, you can easily apply those bonuses without them getting items and use them as story points/quest rewards.

Eh?

I don't want to remove magic items. I just want to reduce the number of magical items a character has at one time. I'd rather throw the Primary items away and leave only the secondary items with their quirky sundry effects. But I can't do that, because the reverse is not only assumed, but Built Into the Math.

I hate that there are still three items that are required. I still need a weapon, armor and necklace to function. If I want my guy to just have a ring, boots and goggles, I'm still going to be sub-par compared to the other guy who has all his Necessary items.

And as others have pointed out, while the math may not REQUIRE the other slots, the items for the other slots may be too good to pass up; every fighter may want the Shield of Boogers because the benefit that the Shield of Boogers provides is just too good to not use. Sort've like how anyone and everyone who can use light armor uses a Chain Shirt because it's the best.