New article Design and Development Article on Magic Item Slots

[JohnSnow]

That's puke-inducing, frankly. What, you can "con" an NPC's level by using Detect Magic and checking out his hands? God I hope not.

What is this "Detect Magic" of which you speak?

Quite frankly, we haven't seen any sign that such a divination can be easily done on the fly. When you're back home and safe, maybe you'll have the time for such a complex ritual.

Sucks to have to rely on your intuition, doesn't it?

 

[Marshall]

I think Campbell's issue with breaking supension of belief is that if all the items except rings can be heroic level, then why can't rings be heroic level. Why can't their be minor rings. THAT doesn't make sense. At least have a catagory of all magic amulets, necklaces, rings and other jewery are all paragon level then, why only rings? Anyone with working hands and some fingers can slip a ring on.

I know it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it was the first thing that jumped out at me as a game designer when I read the article. The second thing being that they still had a christmas tree because of all the items. They may not be needed items, but they are a checklist of slots none the list and gives the feeling that you have to have one of each magic item you can get. That is what makes the game feel more like a game and less like a heroic fantasy story.

Thats a good point. I wonder if 'minor rings' are actually wondrous items that you keep in convenient location and its just Rings that have a tier limit.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What is this "Detect Magic" of which you speak?

Quite frankly, we haven't seen any sign that such a divination can be easily done on the fly. When you're back home and safe, maybe you'll have the time for such a complex ritual.

Sucks to have to rely on your intuition, doesn't it?

No, actually, it doesn't. However, it's a lot more damn silly to claim that there's no Detect Magic than to believe that there is, frankly. I'll be really surprised if there isn't something along those lines, possibly even something that's "always on" for magic-users. Possibly something fancy like Harry Dresden's Third Eye.

What sucks, though, is when it's obvious what level an NPC is due to things he's wearing.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

This will work if, and only if, players can't acquire items through crafting or trade. If they can get their gear independent of what the GM provides, then it's out of his hands and he will have to deal with properly-geared PCs.

How do you know this? Do you know what the types of items that can be put into these "optional" slots are? What if the items are all relatively low power, limited use or situational? Perhaps the reason these items are considered optional is that none of them will lead to a "properly-geared" PC.

If you have a pair of boots that allows you to tumble past an opponent once per encounter with no penalty, is that going to so much better than a pair of boots that allows you to move an extra 10 feet, excuse me, 2 squares, once per encounter?

Maybe the boots I listed above are the default power level of these optional items and therefore the lack of them won't dramatically unbalance the game from its default setting, and neither will having every slot filled.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Players control time. All that needs be said is "I'm (We're) going over here, to this secured space, and taking the time needed to make this stuff.", where "here" is someplace proofed against hostile NPCs and plausible deleterious events, and the GM gets to sit there trying to figure out what to do next. Furthermore, players expect trade because--especially as your game moves into 5th level spells--the setting expands large enough to make trade in goods or services of any sort inevitable regardless of the GM's intentions. ("We can teleport to any spot in the world, and none will trade with us? No, it doesn't work that way.")

Maybe if the rest of the game world was on pause when the characters aren't involved this would be true, but time marches on. The villain grows in power while the PCs make stuff. People, places or things important to the characters are harmed due to their inactions. The DM needs to make the world a real place where the villains aren't just waiting around for the hereos to come ruin their plot. That would be the biggest "video-game-like-thing" that I've seen above any chages being made to the game.

You're 5th-level spells thing isn't relavent to 4E. Teleport may well be much higher and we know it will be a ritual and that it has been specifically mentioned as being time-consuming and expensive in and of itself.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What sucks, though, is when it's obvious what level an NPC is due to things he's wearing.

Kinda, I guess.

0 Rings: level 1-30
1 Ring: level 11-30
2 Rings: level 21-30

Kinda like "He just cast fireball so he's level 5-20" in 3e.

 

[Set]

What sucks, though, is when it's obvious what level an NPC is due to things he's wearing.

Note to self; wear two rings with Nystul's Magic Aura, and pretend to be much more uber.

Corallary; most Realms NPCs will be wearing four glowing rings, confusing matters mightly. Is Elmunchster *really* 45th level, or are some of those rings fakes?

This vaguely reminds me of Michael Reeves Shattered Land setting, in which wizards wore a signature ring on a finger depending on which of the ten ranks of mastery they had attained, and could recognize at a glance where they stood, meeting a new mage. Once one had mastered the tenth rank of magic, the mage could finally take the ring off, as he had transcended the ranking system...

I find it interesting that everyone is now crying foul that 4e won't be ignoring previous editions ENOUGH.

Same thing happened from 2e to 3e. Half of the respondents said, 'You changed *everything!*' while the other half said, 'You barely changed *anything!*'

The funny thing is, even the people who think these changes didn't go far enough really have to acknowledge what a step forward this is. In 3e, attack bonuses increased with level but AC didn't (unless you were a monk), while magic item bonuses to AC stacked three or four times as high as attack bonuses. Obviously this meant that a magic-heavy game had a completely different balance than a magic-light game. That is GONE in 4e. The absolute worst-case scenario combat rejiggering you might have to do now is funnel some slightly lower-level monsters at the party if you've got no magic items in your campaign.

This is the ideal, IMO. If I want to play a Conan of Cimmeria / Iron Heroes style game with few or no magic items, or a Forgotten Realms-style game where every barkeeper is a 25th level retired adventurer with a keep full of magic items, I should be able to use the same basic classes to do so.

Do I blindly trust the 4E designers to have gotten this blend totally right? Not really. I'll see it when I see it, and make no prejudgements. They've gotten some things very right, they've gotten some things very wrong. Time will tell which one this will be.

I'm not thrilled with the idea of different slots having different 'affinities,' as it seems entirely settings-assumption-specific, but it's not like almost every single item designer (including Monte Cook himself, in his Books of Eldritch Might) didn't end up completely ignoring those DMG body slot-to-item type in 3rd Edition, so I imagine it will be just as easy to house rule into oblivion in 4th edition.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I don't get the "ring at 10th level thing." How is a Ring of Warmth unsuitable for a low level character? What STOPS him from slipping it on his finger aside from the DM not introducing rings into his campaign? Or do rings have an inherent sense of how many XP their users possess and don't work until they meet the required skill level?

Why would you assume 3E Rings = 4E Rings? I would assume that the power that is only able to be released by more powerful PCs is greater than that of keeping oneself warm.

"Rings: This slot has changed quite a bit. A starting character isn’t powerful enough to unleash the power of a ring."

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

What sucks, though, is when it's obvious what level an NPC is due to things he's wearing.

How is that any different than telling what level an NPC is by the number of iterative attacks he makes, or what level spell he can cast? It gives at best a 10 level range, and even then who says that it really does.

"You see a tall swordsman emerge from behind the tree."

"I cast Detect Magic"

"His sword, armor, cloak, boots and a ring on each hand all glow with a strong radiance."

"Crap, he's got two rings! He's got to be at least Epic level! Run Away!"

Of course what they never found out, since they ran away, was that the swordsman wore the rings as their are family hierlooms. He had not yet unlocked the powers of the rings, but the idea of not wearing because of that never crossed his mind.​

Or, on the other hand, the 11th level PC in the Design and Development article, if encountered as an NPC didn't have any rings - would you then assume he has to be below 11th level?

 

[Set]

"Rings: This slot has changed quite a bit. A starting character isn’t powerful enough to unleash the power of a ring."

Which suggests that Rings might be the 'always on' or 'at will' items, such as a Hat of Disguise or Ring of Invisibility that doesn't have use limits per day or charges. Each one could allow unlimited use of a single spell (or perhaps even multiple spells, for insanely powerful rings).

With spellcasters already having 'at will' blasting powers, and fighters (hopefully) having higher damaging single attacks instead of fat stacks of iterative die-rolling, it wouldn't even be out of line for someone to have a Ring of Scorching Ray or something, usable once per round. By 11th level, any character should be able to match (or exceed) that anyway, and the Ring would just add them the option of doing Fire damage, instead of whatever their default 'blast at will' spell does.