New campaign, Core + ONE acessory

[TheGogmagog]

It isn't fair to give the Cleric every new spell that ever comes out automatically. Make the cleric pay gold to add the spell to her list just like the Wizard does. Otherwise, in a game with all books allowed, Clerics would have like 20 times as many spells per level as the Wizard, for instance.

Well, that's part of the reasoning behind naming one additional book, instead of everything goes. The problem is partly that there IS a spell compendium, combined with the learned spell rules for Clerics VS Wizards. It seems to be an issue with RAW spells learned that is magnified by the addition of something like the spell compendium (or those campaigns that every book is approved).

I think I will place a limit on divine spells known from the spell compendium to balance things out. I've heard of PirateCat's system and since there are a few testimonials, I'll probably go with that. If it makes the spell compendium less attractive as the one source book then fine. It seems to be a 3.0 spellcasting prodigy issue anyway. If everyone has to have it, and those that can't don't feel it's fair, then there is something wrong. Had people chosen complete divine, and complete arcane it probably wouldn't have come up as an issue.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

As the "grumbling" player, I can accept forcing the cleric to swap spells out of the main list though I don't think this change totally fixes the issues I have.

Clerics, druids, and others have a large list to choose from in the PHB, many of which may never get used so it doesn't really hinder them much.

A wizard's greatest asset is the variety of spells he can pick and choose from in his spellbook while only having so many spells he can cast per day. Since the wizard would only get spells from the SpC during his level up spell choices, he relies on the generosity of the DM to place other spellbooks and arcane spell scrolls during the course of the adventure (the DM has all but said that there is probably not going to be a place to buy new scrolls).

My gripe was that non-wizard casters had a nice bonus, while wizards were being weakened in the same stroke. Clerics had a huge choice of spells to pick from while wizards had been turned into sorcerers with less spells per day.

It's not a huge gripe, but I felt it had to be pointed out to the DM and he wanted to get an outside PoV to see what others thought.

 

[Rystil Arden]

(the DM has all but said that there is probably not going to be a place to buy new scrolls).

This, I think, is a big problem no matter what the campaign, even if it is core only. I can buy 'the scroll places rarely carry more than one or two SpC spells, if that', but I can't buy 'nobody sells scrolls, ever'. It's a free Feat for all Wizards. Even apprentices can make the 1st-level scrolls, and they can write down 8 spells on a scroll for a day of work and barely any XP lost and make a great profit. It's not like this is Craft Rod or Craft Ring or something else that almost nobody takes.

 

[buzz]

For the sake of argument, I have to ask: What's wrong with allowing clerics access to any published spell? By limiting their access, what imbalance are you correcting?

 

[Rystil Arden]

For the sake of argument, I have to ask: What's wrong with allowing clerics access to any published spell? By limiting their access, what imbalance are you correcting?

Well, let's assume that you don't agree with most that the deck is already stacked in the Cleric's favour out of all the core classes (except maybe Druid, who is *also* advantaged by this). Let's assume we agree that Wizard and Cleric are balanced as-is. The Cleric has access to 30ish spells per spell level automatically plus two domain spells which may or may not be new per spell level. The Wizard has between 2 and 4 spells per spell level, depending on even or odd level, plus whatever she can find in scrolls (or Wizards who let her pay to scribe from their books for 50xlevel) and has to pay a second time in ink to scribe them. If the Wizard is not a specialist and goes crazy, spending thousands upon thousands of gold, maybe she will have the same number of spells known as the Cleric. Okay, we'll say that's balanced. After all, the Cleric's BAB, armour proficiencies, Hit Dice, uh wait

Anyway, enter Spell Compendium. Suddenly, the Cleric doesn't just have 30ish spells known per level. She has almost 100. The Wizard? She still has 2 to 4 plus what she can find. Now ready for the final straw? The GM says she will never find anything more.

 

[Endur]

So I'm DM'ing a new campaign and to keep things simple, I'm keeping it core rules (PhB, DMG prestige classes) Plus one acessory book. Complete whatever for feat and prestige class selection.

I think it works pretty well. For the current campaign I'm GMing, I allow one rule from a accessory book. i.e. one non-standard class, one non-standard prestige class, or one non-standard feat.

My thought was that the accessories were playtested one rule at a time with the core rules, accessory rules weren't playtested with other accessory rules.

This has worked out fine for me. I think your one accessory book per character should work out pretty well too.

 

[buzz]

Anyway, enter Spell Compendium. Suddenly, the Cleric doesn't just have 30ish spells known per level. She has almost 100. The Wizard? She still has 2 to 4 plus what she can find. Now ready for the final straw? The GM says she will never find anything more.

But that's one GM making a call; that's not RAW. RAW, the wizard can find/research/buy as many spells as they want (or can afford).

As for the cleric, access to all those spells just increases the number of spells they could not prepare that day, as they're still limited in that capacity. Given that, for sake of argument, the spells in the Compendium are balanced for their level (i.e., no more or less powerful than the core spells, since "availability" is not a criteria in D&D), the cleric isn't gaining access to anythig more powerful than what they already had access to.

Ergo, who cares? Let 'em pray for whatever.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As for the cleric, access to all those spells just increases the number of spells they could not prepare that day, as they're still limited in that capacity. Given that, for sake of argument, the spells in the Compendium are balanced for their level (i.e., no more or less powerful than the core spells, since "availability" is not a criteria in D&D), the cleric isn't gaining access to anythig more powerful than what they already had access to.

Ergo, who cares? Let 'em pray for whatever.

Are you saying that the current Sorcerer would be balanced with a Sorcerer that can swap out its Spells Known each night for any spells in any book? Or perhaps a better analogy--would you let Wizards start off with every spell known in their spellbook? Why not?

The fact that the Cleric has access to so many spells is highly significant, especially when you start seeing corner-case spells. Fighting the ooze king? Prep some corner spell that does extra damage to oozes. On the Plane of Shadow? Prep a spell that lets you control shadows and shadow creatures. Even if each of the spells is of equivalent power, presumably the spells are different from each other, and so you've increased versatility. By giving a huge list (and take your argument one step further and say we gave the Cleric access to every spell made in any supplement by any company, ever, assuming they are each balanced), you increase the power substantially (Assuming the player is diligent enough to find the optimal spells, of course).

 

[buzz]

Are you saying that the current Sorcerer would be balanced with a Sorcerer that can swap out its Spells Known each night for any spells in any book? Or perhaps a better analogy--would you let Wizards start off with every spell known in their spellbook? Why not?

Let's not muddy the waters by talking about alternate sorcerers or wizards. As far as I know, the restrictions that exist for those classes are part of their class balance. In turn, the lack of restricitons on the cleric is part of its.

Fighting the ooze king? Prep some corner spell that does extra damage to oozes. On the Plane of Shadow? Prep a spell that lets you control shadows and shadow creatures. Even if each of the spells is of equivalent power, presumably the spells are different from each other, and so you've increased versatility.

But the cleric's player still needs to prep those spells in advance. Prep-ing that "perfect" spell still means not prep-ing another spell, thay may be just as useful, if not moreso, depending on how the encounter goes.

By giving a huge list (and take your argument one step further and say we gave the Cleric access to every spell made in any supplement by any company, ever, assuming they are each balanced), you increase the power substantially (Assuming the player is diligent enough to find the optimal spells, of course).

But it's entirely possible that a Sor or Wiz player could have researched/learned all the best spells from all the supplements, too, and made sure that was the pool they drew on for spell choices. Are you going to disallow them from making good choices?

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing more or less special about spells from secondary sources. I don't know of any sections ins the RAW that demand they be treated any differently. (If anything, the PHB still has the monopoly on D&D's most consistently useful spells.) Assuming balanced design, the classes aren't gaining access to any more power than they already have (especially since a lot of non-core spells differ in mostly cosmetic ways).

IMO, either the supplement is in play or it's not. I don't necessarily see a good reason why there should be a meta- or in-game reason why material should be treated any differently simply because it appears in a different book. If there's a perceived balance issue with a particular spell/feat/whatever that's affceting the game, then the DM and the group deal with it in a rational manner.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Let's not muddy the waters by talking about alternate sorcerers or wizards. As far as I know, the restrictions that exist for those classes are part of their class balance. In turn, the lack of restricitons on the cleric is part of its.


But the cleric's player still needs to prep those spells in advance. Prep-ing that "perfect" spell still means not prep-ing another spell, thay may be just as useful, if not moreso, depending on how the encounter goes.


But it's entirely possible that a Sor or Wiz player could have researched/learned all the best spells from all the supplements, too, and made sure that was the pool they drew on for spell choices. Are you going to disallow them from making good choices?

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing more or less special about spells from secondary sources. I don't know of any sections ins the RAW that demand they be treated any differently. (If anything, the PHB still has the monopoly on D&D's most consistently useful spells.) Assuming balanced design, the classes aren't gaining access to any more power than they already have (especially since a lot of non-core spells differ in mostly cosmetic ways).

IMO, either the supplement is in play or it's not. I don't necessarily see a good reason why there should be a meta- or in-game reason why material should be treated any differently simply because it appears in a different book. If there's a perceived balance issue with a particular spell/feat/whatever that's affceting the game, then the DM and the group deal with it in a rational manner.

The problem isn't that it is supplemental material. The problem is that it is more material.

Assume that the Cleric is balanced with 30 choices to the Wizard's 2 to 4 + maybe more later, as you say you do assume. More choices are more powerful (otherwise you would accept that the Wizard whose book has all the spells is balanced). So when you give the Cleric 100 choices to the Wizard's 2 to 4 plus maybe more, then that isn't balanced anymore.

It isn't based on where they come from--some people suggested a 1 for 1 swapout where you switch a core PH spell for a new spell. That's totally fair. The problem is quantity, not which ones they picked.