Horwath
Legend
well, if he is referring to full sprint, he may be on point.
world class sprinters lose max pace around after 200 meters(20 seconds) and can keep it max for 400 m. around 8 rounds.
D&D 5E New Chase Rules (First Draft)
world class sprinters lose max pace around after 200 meters(20 seconds) and can keep it max for 400 m. around 8 rounds.
The spell rules feel a bit overly complicated to me. Instead of making spells crappy, I would just increase the risk of using them. Have it give a big penalty to the chase roll (and no level scaling just a single penalty), but the spell works as normal. Or if you just say that casting a spell delays you a square...so it’s a big slowdown.
The rules seem to be very con heavy. When I think of the classic chase I think of Aladdin, and while he was in good shape it was clearly his dexterity that kept him ahead of the guards. I would just use normal athletics and acrobatics options, and then if you want to add in a con option for the chase check I think that’s fine.
I get the penalty to armor...but that is not the 5e way. 5e is very comfortable with armor, you can sleep in it, it has no endurance penalties, etc. it really should not be a factor in the rules, other than if it slows you down which you already account for.
you may want to note in your exhaustion section when exhaustion slows down your speed to half, as that is a big deal for your chase checks. It’s just a quick reminder for players.
The rules seem to be very con heavy. When I think of the classic chase I think of Aladdin, and while he was in good shape it was clearly his dexterity that kept him ahead of the guards. I would just use normal athletics and acrobatics options, and then if you want to add in a con option for the chase check I think that’s fine.
I get the penalty to armor...but that is not the 5e way. 5e is very comfortable with armor, you can sleep in it, it has no endurance penalties, etc. it really should not be a factor in the rules, other than if it slows you down which you already account for.
you may want to note in your exhaustion section when exhaustion slows down your speed to half, as that is a big deal for your chase checks. It’s just a quick reminder for players.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
So FYI, these Chase rules are somewhat inspired by my 10 or so years of playing rugby. I understand why people may want to use regular Athletics (Strength) or Acrobatics (Dexterity). It probably wouldn't break anything doing so. But when you are running as fast as you can while chasing, tackling, dodging, passing, keeping your head on a swivel to keep your situational awareness... it doesn't matter how strong, quick, or agile you are. If you don't have gas in the tank, you can't maintain that kind of action for more than a few seconds. And from my perspective, a good rugby phase is a near perfect real-world equivalent for a chase. I know a lot of people have been comparing the chase to an Olympic sprint, which is fine. But often in a chase you are running through a crowd, jumping a fence, ducking through alleyways, avoiding trees, dealing with the sudden influx of cabbages rolling about after the someone accidentally burst through the cabbage vendor's cart as he shouts "NOT MY CABBAGES!"... you get the point. So if you find my system to be a bit Con heavy, that's why.
So the reason for the spell changes is to reduce how much of an impact they can have on a chase. It's like the classic trope you see in movies where when a person is being chased by an enemy lobbing ranged attacks at them. The person is never directly hit by any of it, but things are blowing up all around them and may trip them up. Because everything is on the move, accuracy goes way down and offense is just generally less effective. So that's what I'm going for. It may not be perfect, but for me it kills two birds with one stone (reducing the insta-stop capacity of spells, and emulating the trope mentioned above).
That's not completely true. It's expanded a bit in XGtE, but it is true that generally you get no penalties involving light armor. But for example, if you sleep in medium or heavy armor, you only regain half your normal hit dice and do not reduce any levels of exhaustion you may have. Additionally, several types of medium armor and all heavy armor causes disadvantage on Stealth checks and, if you don't meet the strength requirement, heavy armor reduces your speed by 10ft. Not to mention a chase is not a normal situation. Armor may not impact general activities, but from my perspective, it absolutely impacts any situation in which you are exerting maximum effort over a prolonged period of time (more than a round). If you had two people of roughly equivalent athletic capacity running an obstacle course, but one was in armor, I would always bet on the non-armored person to win. So while they may not be used often, 5e does have rules that make it harder to function in Medium or Heavy armor. And even if those penalties are not as explicit in the 5e design philosophy, I think they fit well with what I'm trying to achieve with these Chase rules.
That's a good point. Perhaps just putting up all the exhaustion levels would be good, since even 1 level of exhaustion means you will be rolling your Chase roll with disadvantage.
So the reason for the spell changes is to reduce how much of an impact they can have on a chase. It's like the classic trope you see in movies where when a person is being chased by an enemy lobbing ranged attacks at them. The person is never directly hit by any of it, but things are blowing up all around them and may trip them up. Because everything is on the move, accuracy goes way down and offense is just generally less effective. So that's what I'm going for. It may not be perfect, but for me it kills two birds with one stone (reducing the insta-stop capacity of spells, and emulating the trope mentioned above).
That's not completely true. It's expanded a bit in XGtE, but it is true that generally you get no penalties involving light armor. But for example, if you sleep in medium or heavy armor, you only regain half your normal hit dice and do not reduce any levels of exhaustion you may have. Additionally, several types of medium armor and all heavy armor causes disadvantage on Stealth checks and, if you don't meet the strength requirement, heavy armor reduces your speed by 10ft. Not to mention a chase is not a normal situation. Armor may not impact general activities, but from my perspective, it absolutely impacts any situation in which you are exerting maximum effort over a prolonged period of time (more than a round). If you had two people of roughly equivalent athletic capacity running an obstacle course, but one was in armor, I would always bet on the non-armored person to win. So while they may not be used often, 5e does have rules that make it harder to function in Medium or Heavy armor. And even if those penalties are not as explicit in the 5e design philosophy, I think they fit well with what I'm trying to achieve with these Chase rules.
That's a good point. Perhaps just putting up all the exhaustion levels would be good, since even 1 level of exhaustion means you will be rolling your Chase roll with disadvantage.
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embee
Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
You need to develop Terrain a lot better.
Consider the following chase scenario: A carriage chases a mounted rider off-road but not in wooded terrain
Sure, the carriage doesn't get exhausted. But it is not designed to go over rough but not difficult terrain. You need to add in a system to damage or destroy that vehicle or for it to even overturn (and injure mounts, drivers, and occupants)
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Yes! I totally forgot about this. I'm gonna start pondering a way to incorporate this.
Asisreo
Patron Badass
Its interesting you said combat is more developed than chases considering that chases are exactly combat except with more rules. Actions, Bonus Actions, Movement, Difficult Terrain, Spells, HP, Attack Rolls, Hiding, etc. all carry over from the rules of combat but now there's rules for exhausting yourself, running into random stuff, and escaping.
Anything you can do in combat, and all the choices you can make remain. Obviously, now instead of the Attack and Cast a Spell actions being the default actions someone would take to reduce HP, Dash is the default action to reduce distance.
Anything you can do in combat, and all the choices you can make remain. Obviously, now instead of the Attack and Cast a Spell actions being the default actions someone would take to reduce HP, Dash is the default action to reduce distance.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Have you ever tried to run a chase using combat rules? Personally, I find it pretty unwieldy and uninteresting. One of the primary reasons for this is because your speed is so well defined. A human monk who can move 120ft in a round is never going to be caught by a dwarf fighter moving 50ft a round. Sure, that fighter can fire their bow (if they aren't devoted to melee combat) to try and reduce the monk's HP, but they are then only limited to moving 25ft and have one, maybe two rounds to get shots off and bring that monk down.
A DM can certainly throw in complications for that monk, but then once again, the chase is being adjusted by DM fiat rather than strategy being used by the participants.
Just as D&D doesn't use combat rules for the social or exploration pillars of D&D, I don't think normal combat rules are completely appropriate for chase scenes. Now those rules may work for you, and certainly more power to you. But normal combat rules just don't work for how I envision a chase in my games.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Ok, so this is very rough (just wrote it up), but here is some additional rules/considerations when using mounts or vehicles.
Chases Involving Mounts and/or Vehicles
Mounts and Vehicles have their own special rules when engaged in a chase.
Chases Involving Mounts and/or Vehicles
Mounts and Vehicles have their own special rules when engaged in a chase.
In order to use a mount or vehicle, it must be appropriate to the kind of terrain upon which the chase is taking place. In certain circumstances, engaging in a chase may be impossible due to the terrain. For example, a carriage is not likely to function in a forest or rocky plain, and a horse would be a poor mount to use on a mountain chase. Even if the DM determines that your mount or vehicle can navigate the terrain, it still may not be ideal for your mount or vehicle. Below are the different grades of terrain for your vehicle and the effect.
Perfect. The terrain is ideal for the functioning of you mount or vehicle. While engaging in a chase on this terrain, you have no chance for failure. Examples include a flat prairie for a horse, a smoothly paved road for a carriage, and clear skies for a griffon.
Rough. This terrain is not quite ideal. It’s manageable, but the ride will not be comfortable and is likely to be bumpy. Each time a chase roll is made, the DM will make a secret d10 roll. On a 1, there is a setback that will cause your chase roll to fail. If you suffer 3 setbacks, your mount or vehicle can no longer continue the chase. Examples of this terrain include a rocky desert for a horse, cobblestone road for a carriage, and turbulent winds for a griffon.
Hazardous. Attempting to use your mount or vehicle in this kind of terrain is not only risky, it is dangerous. Each time a chase roll is made, the DM will make a secret d4 roll. On a 1 there is a set that will cause your chase roll to fail. In addition, your mount or vehicle will take damage equal to half their maximum hit points. If this reduces your mount or vehicle to 0 hit points, the driver and any riders are thrown from the mount/vehicle and take appropriate falling damage. Examples of this might include a swamp of sadness for a horse, broken roads full of potholes for a carriage, or a severe thunderstorm for a griffon.
A driver can decide to slow their speed by half. Doing so reduces the terrain grade by one step.
Once a DM has approved that the terrain is reasonable for your mount or vehicle, the driver must be identified. To control a mount or drive a vehicle, the driver must have at least one hand devoted to the task for the entire duration of the chase.
If the driver of a mount has the Mounted Combat feat they can control their mount using only their legs, freeing both hands for other tasks. In order to do this, the mount must be one trained to accept a rider.
Perfect. The terrain is ideal for the functioning of you mount or vehicle. While engaging in a chase on this terrain, you have no chance for failure. Examples include a flat prairie for a horse, a smoothly paved road for a carriage, and clear skies for a griffon.
Rough. This terrain is not quite ideal. It’s manageable, but the ride will not be comfortable and is likely to be bumpy. Each time a chase roll is made, the DM will make a secret d10 roll. On a 1, there is a setback that will cause your chase roll to fail. If you suffer 3 setbacks, your mount or vehicle can no longer continue the chase. Examples of this terrain include a rocky desert for a horse, cobblestone road for a carriage, and turbulent winds for a griffon.
Hazardous. Attempting to use your mount or vehicle in this kind of terrain is not only risky, it is dangerous. Each time a chase roll is made, the DM will make a secret d4 roll. On a 1 there is a set that will cause your chase roll to fail. In addition, your mount or vehicle will take damage equal to half their maximum hit points. If this reduces your mount or vehicle to 0 hit points, the driver and any riders are thrown from the mount/vehicle and take appropriate falling damage. Examples of this might include a swamp of sadness for a horse, broken roads full of potholes for a carriage, or a severe thunderstorm for a griffon.
A driver can decide to slow their speed by half. Doing so reduces the terrain grade by one step.
Once a DM has approved that the terrain is reasonable for your mount or vehicle, the driver must be identified. To control a mount or drive a vehicle, the driver must have at least one hand devoted to the task for the entire duration of the chase.
If the driver of a mount has the Mounted Combat feat they can control their mount using only their legs, freeing both hands for other tasks. In order to do this, the mount must be one trained to accept a rider.
If a chase involves a mount, then the mount’s Constitution modifier is used to determine the number of rounds it can maintain a chase. Mounts that are trained to carry riders can sustain a chase for twice as long as normal. After this, the mount risks exhaustion as normal, making Constitution saving throws to avoid taking any levels of exhaustion.
If the chase involves a vehicle being towed by one or more creatures of burden (such as a horse-drawn carriage), then the Constitution modifier of the strongest towing creature is used to determine the number of rounds the vehicle can sustain the chase. If more than creature is towing the vehicle, any Constitution saves to avoid exhaustion are made with advantage.
If a chase involves a vehicle or mount that is immune to exhaustion, then there is no limit to the amount of time it can sustain a chase.
If the chase involves a vehicle being towed by one or more creatures of burden (such as a horse-drawn carriage), then the Constitution modifier of the strongest towing creature is used to determine the number of rounds the vehicle can sustain the chase. If more than creature is towing the vehicle, any Constitution saves to avoid exhaustion are made with advantage.
If a chase involves a vehicle or mount that is immune to exhaustion, then there is no limit to the amount of time it can sustain a chase.
When a mount or vehicle is involved in a chase, only the driver makes a chase roll. If the driver is using a mount, they use a Handle Animal check for their chase roll. A driver of a vehicle makes a check using the appropriate vehicle proficiency. In either case, the driver can choose to use Dexterity or Wisdom to modify their chase roll.
When determining any chase roll modifiers for a mount or vehicle, consider the factors listed below.
Conditions
A driver can continue to make chase rolls even if their speed is reduced to 0. However, they do not make chase rolls if they cannot take actions, or their mount/vehicle’s speed is reduced to 0. If the driver is a pursuer, they automatically recede one square from their quarry each round they cannot make a chase roll. If the driver is a quarry, then all pursuers chasing them automatically advance one square each round they cannot make a chase roll.
If a mount or vehicle has multiple riders and the driver is unable to continue making chase rolls, then a rider can use their action to switch places with the driver. A chase roll cannot be made for that round following such a switch but can resume as normal next round.
Difficult Terrain
Difficult terrain can be particularly difficult on a vehicle if it was not designed for it. Not only does the difficult terrain have the normal effect, but it may also increase the grade of the terrain by one step.
Speed
The speed of the driver is determined by the speed of the mount or vehicle they are using.
In addition, it is also important to consider the mount or vehicle’s carrying capacity. If a mount can only accept one rider, or a vehicle is built for 6 riders, then carrying any more than this is going to negatively impact speed. A mount or vehicle carrying more riders than normal has their speed reduced by 20ft for each additional creature they are carrying beyond their normal limit. For the purposes of this limit 2 small sized creatures count as 1 medium sized creature and 2 medium creatures count as 1 large creature.
Conditions
A driver can continue to make chase rolls even if their speed is reduced to 0. However, they do not make chase rolls if they cannot take actions, or their mount/vehicle’s speed is reduced to 0. If the driver is a pursuer, they automatically recede one square from their quarry each round they cannot make a chase roll. If the driver is a quarry, then all pursuers chasing them automatically advance one square each round they cannot make a chase roll.
If a mount or vehicle has multiple riders and the driver is unable to continue making chase rolls, then a rider can use their action to switch places with the driver. A chase roll cannot be made for that round following such a switch but can resume as normal next round.
Difficult Terrain
Difficult terrain can be particularly difficult on a vehicle if it was not designed for it. Not only does the difficult terrain have the normal effect, but it may also increase the grade of the terrain by one step.
Speed
The speed of the driver is determined by the speed of the mount or vehicle they are using.
In addition, it is also important to consider the mount or vehicle’s carrying capacity. If a mount can only accept one rider, or a vehicle is built for 6 riders, then carrying any more than this is going to negatively impact speed. A mount or vehicle carrying more riders than normal has their speed reduced by 20ft for each additional creature they are carrying beyond their normal limit. For the purposes of this limit 2 small sized creatures count as 1 medium sized creature and 2 medium creatures count as 1 large creature.
Using a mount or vehicle has certain advantages and disadvantages. One of the big advantages is that any riders (except the driver) can now aim behind them, allowing a quarry to attack their pursuers. However, it generally makes actions like attempting to hide nearly impossible. In addition, attackers will generally have a choice regarding whether they would like to target any visible riders or the mount/vehicle. As the DM, you may wish to consider how many hit points a vehicle has, and whether it may suffer any setbacks as it takes damage.
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