New Class -- Historian (think Indiana Jones / Tomb Raider)

[PrecociousApprentice]

I like the class a lot. This will be an interesting class to play with. That said, I don't think that this class should be considered complete. I would say that this has moved into the beta stage. You have a good start, it isn't falling apart, but it needs to be refined.

One balance issue that I see is that there are a large number of powers that are attacks against non-AC defenses, and have th weapon keyword. That effectively means that they are about +2-3 verses other powers. This is huge. Other classes gain a few weapon attacks cs non-AC defenses, but they are rare. The same should be true of this class.

I really like the concept, but there are several 4e conventions that are not observed. The fact observed above that you have encounter stances is not well balanced.

A few things about balancing powers.

Weapon attacks are vs AC, except for rare exceptions
Save end powers are only for dailies
Stance is only for dailies
Reliable is only for dailies
Powers do not gain any untyped bonuses except ofr rare exceptions, and these powers always give up significant damage to do so. This one is a convention that I think stinks. Bonuses should be rare, but they should be better than a melee basic attack. WotC doesn't observe this, and has created some stinker powers because of it.

The last thing I would say is that the class should always be able to fill a consistent role, even if there is bleed over into other roles. A class that doesn't have a dominant role is most likely either doomed to be the 3e bard or the 3e CoDzilla or Wizard. Any of these cases is bad. Pick a role, build the class to fill that role, and then allow bleed over into the rest if you want.

 

[Inlicere]

Wow... This is quite a wave of responses! Thanks to all of you for taking the time to post!

I'm going to do my best to answer your questions about the current version of the Historian but, as I do, I want you to be aware that there is a MAJOR revision in the works. Many of the questions won't be applicable in the next version, but I'm answering them in the interest of helping you get the most out of the version you have right now.

I also want to let you know that there is a possibility that the upcoming revision will be released as a real product. More on that later though.

And now to your questions! Remember... these answers are in the context of the current version of the class.

Question 1: When retraining a power gained from another class through the Historian class feature Esoteric Knowledge, does the new "retrained" power have to be equal to the level (or lower) of the old "original" power? Example: A Historian gains an Encounter Attack power from another power source at 4th level. When she reaches 7th level, she decides to retrain her 4th level Encounter Attack power for a new one. Does the new power still have to be 4th level or lower, or can she choose one of 7th level or lower?

Esoteric Knowledge is modeled after power-swap feats. As with power-swap feats, the power gained through retraining can increase in level over time. In your example, the retrained power can be 7th-level or lower.

Question 2: In one encounter, can a Historian make Practical Knowledge checks for different monsters, and retain bonuses against all monsters he made a check for? Example: A Historian is fighting a Kobold Skirmisher and a Kobold Slinger. In the first round, he makes a check against the Skirmisher, and in the second, he makes one against the Slinger (alternately, he could've used 2 minor actions in first round, it doesn't change anything for this example). Does he retain bonuses against both monsters for the rest of the encounter, or just against the newest "checked" monster (in this case, the Slinger)?

The benefits of the check are lost when you make a subsequent check.

If not, I'm puzzled over how this would work fluff-wise. If a Historian were to remember something about creature 1, and then something a few moments later about creature 2, why would he "forget" what weaknesses he can exploit about creature 1?

It isn't that he forgets what he knows... It's a combination of:

• The combat giving him the opportunity (or not) to take advantage of what he knows, and
• His ability to focus on coming up with useful tips is limited while ducking sword-swipes, etc.

I should mention that I don't think of Practical Knowledge as exploiting the same weakness of the creature over-and-over. Rather, it reflects the Historians general knowledge of the creatures behavior and physiology.

(This is a common issue with knowledge-based abilities. It's necessary for them to have limits for balance purposes, but then you have to rationalize why a character seems to "know" something one moment and then "not know" it the next.)

Question 3: ... When you say the target's next turn is treated as a "limited action surprise round", does that mean that target's next turn is as normal, but follow (1)'s rules? Or, does it mean it follows both (1) and (2), MINUS the part in (2) that says they grant CA (therefore, they are limited in actions and Surprised)?

...

Maybe Improvised could read as (1) above does, with this change: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target may only take a single Standard, Move, or Minor action on it's next turn. The target may still take Free, Opportunity, and Immediate actions.

Your rewording is correct -- that is intention of the keyword.

I just had an idea, that, although weaker (maybe) than the above, adds some interesting tactics to Improvised. What do you think of: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target is unable to take Opportunity or Immediate actions until the end of it's next turn.

Hmm... neat idea! I'll put some thought into that. Thanks!

I noticed that A) all of your encounter power levels have an attack specialized for the 4 paths of the Historian, B) all of your utility levels have At-Will, Encounter, and Daily powers, and that C) all of your daily powers either have a miss function or the Reliable keyword. Super ****ing bravo man, I can't explain how important these things are to me.

Thanks!

IMO, the majority of the daily powers for all the classes should do something on a miss, contain the Reliable keyword, or do something similar, but they don't. I'm not gonna go look through all of them, but I imagine a good chunk of dailys for the core classes don't have any of the three. Which, sadly, makes the Historian look overpowered in this regard (on paper).

Another hmm... as far as I can see, all the dailies for the core classes have a miss effect, the Reliable keyword, or have an "Effect:" item (which takes place whether or not the attack hits). Are you thinking of any in particular that don't have one of these?

2: For the Daily Attack 1 "Cut and Run" it says you may move a number of squares equal to your speed +2 "without incurring a penalty to attack rolls or granting combat advantage". What do you mean by that? It sounds like they get to take a fake "run" action without the penalties or granting CA, but they still draw OA's. Is that what you were going for?

Yes; I'm not happy with the wording, but your understanding of the power is correct.

3: For the Daily Attack 1 "Flying Tackle" (awesome, btw), does the historian get to choose what square adjacent to his target he lands prone in after the tackle? I assume the secondary basic attack is made after the historian has landed prone (and therefore at a -2 penalty)?

Yes and yes. (I like questions like this! )

5: For the Daily Attack 1 "Lead Them On", why did you choose to include a (save ends) for the Mark condition? (I've read some higher level powers since I wrote this question, and saw you did it a few more times, but the questions still there; why?)

I'm not sure I understand the motivation for your question on this one, but I'll give a shot at answering anyway: In the PH, we see marking used more by defenders than by other classes, but they also tend to use it as a setup for another ability (through Combat Challenge or Divine Challenge).... in other words, the focus is less on the marking itself, and more on what they can do to you because of the mark.

For the Historian, the mark is just a way of giving the creature an incentive to focus on him rather than on an ally. The (save ends) aspect reflects the historians ability to keep the opponents attention for some period of time.

... Therefore, by (what I think are) your RAW, the historian could not use the granted shift of this power if they were surrounded. Is this what you intended?

That's correct... I felt it would be too powerful for a level-1 power to allow the character to shift through a square occupied by an enemy. There are higher-level powers that allow this though.

7: The Encounter Attack 3 "Quick Save" is a sweet ability. Totally heroic, swarthy-like in my mind. With the pulling of your ally, I assume the ally moves through the exact same squares you enter (and then leave), until you end your movement? What if you one of you are large size?

In most cases, following the exact path is probably easiest to run. In my own game, I might be more flexible and run it as if the historian had moved 1 square, then did a 1-square "pull" on the ally, then moved another square, then another "pull", etc.

Size doesn't matter. Seriously, though... this is forced movement, so size doesn't come into it.

To my knowledge, "stance" and "daily" are supposed to go hand-in-hand.

That's certainly the normal case, though it isn't a rule. As far as I know, WotC has published one encounter power that is a stance ("Stance of Chaos", in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide).

Still, the point is well taken.

I like the class a lot. This will be an interesting class to play with. That said, I don't think that this class should be considered complete. I would say that this has moved into the beta stage. You have a good start, it isn't falling apart, but it needs to be refined.

How I wish the next revision were ready... Are you signing up to be a playtester?

Save end powers are only for dailies

As above, the point is well taken, though I do know of one encounter power published by WotC that has a (save ends) feature.

Reliable is only for dailies

Am I missing something obvious? I'm not aware of the Historian having the Reliable keyword on anything other than dailies.

 

[The Cartographist]

Inlicere - I hope that you take advantage of the feedback; a lot of it seems to be pretty good.

When you say MAJOR revision is in the works--how major do you mean?

 

[Inlicere]

When you say MAJOR revision is in the works--how major do you mean?

Does anyone else smell something baking in the kitchen?

I'm not sure how to answer your question without going into details that aren't ready yet. However, the forthcoming revision addresses balance issues and conceptual issues to bring the class into alignment with WotC classes. There are changes to class features, powers, paragon paths, feats, and more...

IMO, it also makes the class even more flavorful. But Wait! There's More! As an added bonus, it actually makes the History skill useful (something you might expect from a class called a Historian!).

(For the benefit of our readers... I want to give The Cartographist some credit--or blame--here: It was a discussion with him that brought up the possibility of turning the Historian into a real product.)

 

[The Cartographist]

Inlicere - Something that makes the History skill useful?

You know, since our discussions, I have been thinking a lot about a game mechanic for research (historical or otherwise). My example is going to be poor, but try to follow me:

Let's say that there is a door found in a dungeon. The door is, of course, locked. It is made of a strange material, covered with strange symbols and markings, bound by magic and strange mechanical gears, levers, switches, etc. The characters want to open the door. But only people with specific knowledge of how to work its ancient and bizarre mechanisms can do so. The best game mechanic to determine if the characters have the knowledge to open the door is the Knowledge Check. How do you simulate the ancient and bizarre knowledge necessary to open the door? An impossibly high DC--say 75.

How does a character make a successful Knowledge Check against such a high DC? They can't. Unless they have been researching the knowledge to do so for quite some time. How does research work?

Four adventures ago, the party came across an ancient tomb that contained some bit of lore or knowledge. Once a character "studies" (1) the book, he gains a "permanent" (2) +10 bonus to Knowledge checks regarding the topic of the book.

. [(1) I'm not sure exactly how to manage "studying." Maybe it just means devoting X number of hours to reading it. Maybe something else...]

. [(2) "Permanent" is a tough concept as well. Perhaps the character gains a certain bonus, and then the bonus decreases over time as he slowly forgets the knowledge that he learned when reading it.]

Then three adventures ago, the party found a tapestry with a diagram on it that is very similar to the front of the door. They gain a (cumulative) bonus of +5 to Knowledge checks.

Over time, the party picks up pieces of information, in the form of a scrap of cloth, an object, a book, a scroll, etc. As these things come to them, they slowly build up a cumulative bonus to Knowledge Checks regarding a certain topic. At the end of it all, they have learned enough to make a successful roll against a DC 75 check.

Perhaps, the players didn't even know that all of the information that they have been gathering over time was related. Maybe they had no idea until they stumbled across the door in the dungeon when all of the information was necessary. THEN they try to open it, and fail, because they don't quite yet have enough knowledge--so the goal of the next adventure or two is to find that information.

I can see a few problems (or issues to be resolved) with this system:

1. Define "Studying," as above.
2. Define "Permanent," as above.
3. The DM will have to track all of the knowledge that the characters are accumulating, because they might not have enough knowledge to know how it all fits together. The characters might actually be gaining knowledge on five or ten different topics simultaneously--more record keeping for the DM.
4. There might be a difference between "general" and "specific" knowledge. For instance, the characters might have learned general knowledge telling them about who constructed the door in the first place, but that general knowledge might be completely useless to trying to open the door--which would require specific knowledge on the various types of locking mechanisms in use by the builders of the door. How does the difference between the two types of knowledge affect game play and how does the mechanic account for that?

And so on.

I think that we've all seen numerous references to this type of adventuring research in books and movies. I think it was in Return of the King where they show Gandalf looking through the room fulls of scrolls, looking for some information. Anything with Indiana Jones where he makes use of some strange bit of knowledge that he has that no one else in the movie has. Even the TV show Alias where they were always trying to find that next ancient artifact (or find out what it was or why it was important.).

Now, for all I know, this type of mechanic is common in rpgs. While the idea appears original to me, I know that I am not that original. But I've not seen this type of mechanic in DnD. I think the Historian class that Inlicere has developed would fit perfectly into such a campaign.

[Sorry for the apparent thread jacking.]

 

[dammitbiscuit]

That's certainly the normal case, though it isn't a rule. As far as I know, WotC has published one encounter power that is a stance ("Stance of Chaos", in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide).

Still, the point is well taken.

Interesting, I'll have to take a look at that.

If I may be conceited enough to believe I have the right to do so:

If I were to choose one of those Encounter stances to axe, I'd axe the Double Movement for Approaching Enemies thing. As a DM I'd be bloody well annoyed if my monsters were never allowed to shift and keep up with a PC that's shifting away. That effect seems potentially good enough to be a daily without any sort of upgrade. I guess I could see it as staying Encounter if it only applied to normal movement, but shifting would still allow the enemies to dodge into close quarters.

Anyway, I hope we're not slowing you down too much with our questions and comments. I really like what I've seen, overall, and look forward to your additional fixes, flavoring, and fleshing out of it. I'm torn - one of my players LOVED the 3.5 archivist, and part of me is highly tempted to pillage abilities from your Historian and glue them onto a Cleric so that said player can live that out. Then again, this class is really cool on its own, and I want to let my players try it. Maybe said fanatical player can be convinced this is the archivist's long-lost twin and he should try it for a change of pace...

 

[King-Panda]

I could've sworn there was a good chunk of dailys that didn't have a miss line, A Reliable keyword, or an Effect line. Looking through a few classes, I see I'm awefully wrong, so, yeah, scratch that.

I'm glad to hear you're doing another rework, and I'm extra glad to see you might get this published. Good for you! Could you give us a loose timeframe as to when the major update will be? Perhaps what month or 2-3 month range it would fall in?

 

[Inlicere]

You know, since our discussions, I have been thinking a lot about a game mechanic for research (historical or otherwise).
...
[Sorry for the apparent thread jacking.]

No apologies needed. Hmm... what you're suggesting sounds like it might be accomplished by an extended skill challenge. Or it might be managed as an extension of the skill challenge system. Just a thought.

Anyway, I hope we're not slowing you down too much with our questions and comments.

Everyone loves feedback! It's much better than throwing something out for comment and getting dead silence back.

I'm glad to hear you're doing another rework, and I'm extra glad to see you might get this published. Good for you! Could you give us a loose timeframe as to when the major update will be? Perhaps what month or 2-3 month range it would fall in?

I don't have a solid answer for you, but I will work to get one asap. It will really depend on whether or not it becomes a real product.

BTW -- this is a great time for all of you to get your "wish list" in to me if there are directions you would like to see this class go that are not already included. I'm not talking about specific powers, etc (though you can feel free to throw those in if you want), but rather themes that you like in this type of character.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

I already like the class a lot; it's hard to think of additional things I'd like to see. The following list is a bunch of ideas that I squeezed out for the sake of answering the prompt and contributing to your idea pile. I am not terribly attached to these fairly loony ideas, but if any spark your imagination I'll be happy to have contributed.

New rituals that use History instead of Arcana/Nature/Religion (hey, Heal is just as mundane and nonmagical of a skill!)

A power or two that reward the (foolhardy but lovable) generalists that we all know at our gaming table, who love to splash their attribute points all over the place. Something that somehow uses Str, Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha. For a rough example, it might be a power that has Dex+Int to hit, Str + Cha to damage, and Wis for quality of power's rider effect.
You orchestrate a brilliant cooperation between mind and body, deftly lunging at your enemy, putting your muscles and your bravura into leaving an unforgettable wound. You perceive an opportunity to (do X) and you take it!
where X=
gut your enemy: Wis increases your crit range for that attack, or inflicts ongoing damage
throw him off-balance: Wis gives target a penalty to defense
shoot him in the eye (ranged): Wis gives penalty to attacks
etc

I'd like to see more abilities, feats, powers, or even magic items that deal with an improvisational approach to problems - and not necessarily improvised weapons, as you've already done a lot with those. Maybe there could be a way for a Historian to say, "Quick, drink this!" and throw together a potion using the spleens of his fallen enemies and some herbs or magical ingredients that he's assumed to be keeping in his pack for just such an emergency as this. Maybe a Historian can say, "Quick, walk like me and follow my lead!" and roll a check or two to quickly observe and mimic a local culture in case they're xenophobic. Or something. Improvisation! Yeah!

As a gamist gamer, I always prefer crunch, but what about some fluff or crunch that supports players who want to roleplay as more of a teacher? I know our history teachers in school probably evoke many dull memories and maybe an instictive groan, but I think there's a place for people who want their character to say, "Thanks for holding down the fort in my absence, TA. Students, I've been away for several months, and I can't wait to tell you the mad, wondrous things I saw! I'll even show you a few of them!" or, "Okay, Regdar, your idea has merit, and I see someone's taught you the foundations. Let's expand on your great idea (encouraging backpat) and take a few more steps! (wide, sweeping gesture as he begins to lay out a brilliant plan which only has vague similarities to the fighter's idea)"