New classes and new rule for Thiefy campaign...

[Magic Missile]

Hello everyone.

I'm planning on running a campaign based loosely on the computer game Thief: The Dark Project.

Basically, the players will all start out as human rogues (demihumans/monsters are very rare in this setting) and advance a few levels before being recruited by the shadowy organisation known as the Keepers.

I am planning to start out the characters as slightly altered Guild Thieves from the FRCS as a standard class, then multiclass then into a new PrC - the Keepers. So I would appreciate any imput/suggestions for the two classes I have posted below.

Keep in mind that, because everyone in the campaign will be taking exactly the same class or combination of these two classes, and not any of the others, it doesn't really matter if they're balanced compared to, say, the Fighter or Wizard. I'm just after comments, opinions, criticism and even sugestions for new abilities. Please be understanding, this is completely new ground for me...

Guild Thief: BAB, Saves etc. as Rogue
Special Abilities at each level:
1.) Sneak attack +d6, doublespeak (+4 Innuendo checks against members of the Thieves Guild)
2.) Evasion, Bonus Feat
3.) Sneak Attack +d6, Uncanny Dodge
4.) Bonus Feat
5.) Sneak Attack +d6, Defensive Roll
6.) Uncanny Dodge, Bonus Feat

Keeper: BAB, Saves etc. as Rogue
Special Abilities at each level:
1.) Move without Trace, Glyphlore (+4 on all checks regarding glyphs), Keeper Lore (identical to Bardic Knowledge ability)
2.) Hide in Plain Sight, Low Light Vision, access to use Magic Device skill*
3.) Uncanny Dodge, Slowfall 20ft
4.) Evasion, Darkvision 5ft, access to Spellcraft skill*
5.) Slowfall 30ft, Skill Mastery
6.) Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision 10ft

*use Magic Device and Spellcraft skills are exclusive Keeper skills, to represent the low-magic setting of the campaing world.

I'm hoping that players will then choose whether to add Keeper levels to gain the mystical special abilities and magic-related skills, or carry on pursuing the Guild Thief class for the sneak attack and feats, or even a little bit of both.

Oh, and another thing: my new rule for knocking people out.

At the moment, to K.O. someone you need to do subdual damage equal to their current hp. But I want a mechanic where a low level rogue can knock a guard unconscious with a single swift blow from a sap, just like in Thief: The Dark Project.

It's very hard for a level 1 Rogue to do 12-14 subdual damage (typical hp for level 1 fighter) in a single attack, even with the +d6 sneak attack. So here's an alternative, based very loosely on the Garotte rules in Song & Silence:

To K.O. an opponent, you must have a subdual damage weapon (normal weapons can be used subdually at -4 attack). Roll a touch attack to hit the target's head; their touch AC is at +2 or more if they have some kind of protective headwear. If the opponent is aware of your presence, this also provokes an AoO; if you take damage from this your attempt to K.O. fails.

Assuming you hit with the touch attack, roll subdual damage (plus any applicable sneak attack) normally. If you inflict subdual damage equal to or greater than *half* of the target's current hp, he falls unconscious.

It is much easier for a level 1 Rogue to do 6-7hp of damage, and so they can K.O. guards fairly easily if they are unaware of their presence.

Again, opinions/criticisms welcome.

Wow, sorry this is such a big post, it seemed so much smaller in my head... :-/

 

[Emongnome]

These classes do seem more powerful than the standard rogue class. That being said, you're right in that balance between characters is irrelevant, but you should consider the effects of gaining exp. If you fight a CR 4 monster with your party, it would be less of a challenge than a normal party of the same size, unless you factor in the possible advantage of an average party with more of a variety of abilities such as spellcasting, warrior-types, ect. Nobody will have good will or fortitude saves, be able to hit everything, ect. That'll be up to you as to whether a same-class party, even with better abilities than the other classes, would be the same with regards to the CR of your opponents.

If your players are into all having very similiar characters, great. If they prefer at least some variety, maybe allow each character to pick which save they want as good, or change out some ability for a better BAB, ect. Just some thoughts.

 

[Magic Missile]

If your players are into all having very similiar characters, great. If they prefer at least some variety, maybe allow each character to pick which save they want as good, or change out some ability for a better BAB, ect. Just some thoughts. [/B]

Ooooh, nice idea... *strokes imaginary beard*

 

[threefallentrees]

KO

You might want to adopt, for knocking people out, the d20 Modern massive damage rule(and the whole damage system with it, probably): If a character takes his Constitution or greater in damage from one hit (in one round?) then he Fort saves vs. damage dealt or drops to -1hp.

This isn't trivial damage, but easily doable with a Sneak Attack and a decent weapon, and -1 has pretty good odds-to-stabilize (to turn down lethality, you could set death's door to Con, of Con+level or something...)

Essentially, what I'm saying here is don't patch a single instance of the rules because the system isn't set up for what you want to do with it. Take your modification down to the deepest levels of the system, modify the underlying assumptions. This way, you don't get weird inconsistencies, and it lends verisimilitude. After all, if you can knock a guard out with a well-placed stab to the kidney, he shouldn't stagger about undistracted by an equally damaging sword cut to the belly. No one will believe that.

 

[Kale78]

IIRC, the thieves in Thief used bows with different types of magical arrows, didn't they? Hopefully I'm not thinking of a different game. Just curious if you were planning on incorporating any part of this aspect, perhaps adding some type of rogue/archer class, this would increase the variety of pcs in the campaign, you could have some mystical rogue/keepers, some thiefy rogue/guild rogue and some fighter type rogue/archers... just a thought

 

[Magic Missile]

Re: KO

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

You might want to adopt, for knocking people out, the d20 Modern massive damage rule(and the whole damage system with it, probably): If a character takes his Constitution or greater in damage from one hit (in one round?) then he Fort saves vs. damage dealt or drops to -1hp.

It's a good idea, but there's still the problem of how a level 1 Rogue is going to do approx. 14 damage (average CON for Fighter1) with a sap... even with a sneak attack and a STR bonus of +2, you still need to roll double 6 to do 14 damage... I want Rogue1's to be able to KO unaware guards with relative ease... would it be a better rule if I *only* allow it to be used with a blackjack/sap? I want to recreate the situation in the computer game where a single well placed blow will KO a guard, but only if he's unaware of your presence and isn't expecting it...

Oh, and yes, I was planning on implementing the Thief: TDP magic arrows. :-D At the moment I'm thinking fire arrows do +d6 fire damage with a chance to ignite opponents, water arrows do subdual damage and put out small fires, moss arrows create a 10-15ft patch of moss, giving +2 to move silently, and gas arrows do subdual damage and disperse a could of gas - FORT save DC 18 or fall unconscious...

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I'd make the bonus for moss arrows larger if you want to model what you see in the videogame.

In your metric of having Rog1's be able to reliably K.O. unaware guards, I question characterizing your standard "guard" as a Ftr1. A War1 is more like your rank and file mook in D&D, and that lowers his hit die from a d10 to a d8. That doesn't bring him down into the reliable one-punch range for a 1st-level rogue, mind you, but it's still what I would do.

 

[Magic Missile]

I'd make the bonus for moss arrows larger if you want to model what you see in the videogame.

In your metric of having Rog1's be able to reliably K.O. unaware guards, I question characterizing your standard "guard" as a Ftr1. A War1 is more like your rank and file mook in D&D, and that lowers his hit die from a d10 to a d8. That doesn't bring him down into the reliable one-punch range for a 1st-level rogue, mind you, but it's still what I would do.

OK, so maybe increase moss arrows to +4?

What whould happen if I used Warriors in place of Fighters...?

So now I'm looking at an average Warrior1... CON let's say 14 (+2), d8+2 = hp 10, so a Rogue1 has to do 10hp to KO bu the normal rules... still hard to do on a d6+d6+2 (assuming average Rogue1 STR bonus is probably +2 at most)... but then again, by my "half-hp = KO rules", it suddenly becomes rather too easy... grr...

 

[Mr Fidgit]

first, a couple of questions:

1) how many players will be in your 'Thief'campaign?

2) will the Keeper PrC be 10 levels?


about those pesky guards...

1) if you scale the guards to the rogue's levels based on a 1st level warrior with an average (10 or 11) Con, this would allow a chance for a low-level rogue to knock the warrior out, and they could be scaled up (to fighters, higher level warriors, higher Con, etc.) as the rogue's gain levels

2) you could change the rules for sap-knock-outs completely. for example: if a rogue attacks with a sap with the intent of knocking someone unconscious, a successful attack deals no damage. instead the victim is allowed a reflex save to avoid unconsciousness. if the foe was flat-footed and unaware of the incoming attack, they shouldn't be allowed a save. -problem solved- (and this type of attack would never work on another rogue with Uncanny Dodge (unless they were 4 or more levels lower than the attacker))

 

[Magic Missile]

Eh, Keeper class could stretch out to 10 levels, but I haven't gone that far as I don't think my players will...

Number of players I hope will be four maximum... I can just about see a group of 4 thieves working as a team, especially if they have varying skills, but five or more thieves inflitrating and robbing a building seems a bit daft...

As for KO rules, what if I were to only start sending the PC's up against guards (Warrior1) when they have picked up another +d6 Sneak Attack? Then average damage for d6+d6+d6+2 is roundabout 10hp... a Warrior1 with average CON will only have 8-9hp, so this could work...

OK, slightly revised sap rules: Using a sap is a touch attack (+2 or more AC for helmets) that provokes an AoO if the target is aware of the attack. Subdual damage is dealt as normal; if the damage equals or beats target's current hp he falls unconscious.

Eh, this is getting messy...