D&D 4E New "Confessions of a Full Time Wizard" - 4e tidbits!

[vazanar]

D&D is coming with a vengence

BTW, the buy in your refer to is an industry term called Barriers to Entry. Most expert gamers do not conciously think of the Barriers new players face, often seeing things from their own perspective instead of that of the gaming novice.

WOW has virutally no barriers to entry from level 1-10. Very few from 11-40 and a handful up to 60. Then you hit a brick wall with raiding, which WOW has been working on fixing.

Until now, roleplaying and D&D especially, has many Barriers to Entry:

Finding a group to play with
Understanding the abstract/ non-rule aspects of role playing
different play styles (hack n slay vs plot driven games mostly)
good vs bad DMs
finding a DM
Having to become a DM
No solo play
overwhelming rules
boring books to read
no immediate reward when you buy the game
character changes not frequent enough
step learning curve
multiple books to buy
confusing starting point (basic game or players handbook)
obscure lore and fluff
complicated/ non-intutive rules (vancian magic, multi classing, hit dice, magic item locations, grapple, tripping, sundering, environmental rules, etc)

As you can see, this is why D&D needed a 4th edition. It was losing players to WOW and it wasn't bringing in new blood. 4e is trying to solve that and make D&D survive into the mainstream fantasy market (as much as it can) so new blood is attracted to it. This is a good thing.

I agree that D&D needs new blood and the MMO market seems a good target. However, few things in the new rules have convinced me that the games rules are easier for someone new to anything but MMO. More speical rules and names may not lead to easier rules. Heck, my newest group members are the least liking of 4e. (They came from the book/acting direction not gaming).

I'll wait for the SRD and see how the 3rd party companies react to the rules, if that ever comes out. If it doesn't fit my gaming group thats fine WOTC gave us 3.5 and its fine. If 4e is better and brings in more people Im in.

 

[SteveC]

Its more a matter of what potential DMs are likely to inflict on people, more than anything else. You're right, it doesn't matter what other people are doing, but if you're used to one or the other and the DM says 'We're doing it this way', you might have a problem. Maybe because you've got the perfect build in mind for 28 point buy, maybe you're hoping for certain stats that only random generation can give you. But either way, a DM doing it a different way can scuttle your grand plans before you even begin.

What you're saying is true, but I make it a point to play and run for my friends, or for what I'd call friendly acquaintances at a bare minimum, so I have never had this as a problem. When a GM sets the groundwork for the campaign, how characters are generated is one of the most important parts of it. When I run a game, I use character creation rules that I think will make the game fun for my players, which includes listening to their suggestions. When I'm playing I make a character that will work with what the GM has in mind, and make suggestions if I have an idea that doesn't quite fit the rules as they present them.

For a game book, you present a default set of rules, and give people options for doing it other ways...I can't think of a better way to do it than that.

--Steve

 

[WayneLigon]

Yes, because, dice rolling will most likely be optional. Optional rules don't have to be allowed by a DM, and quite often are not allowed, at least in the games I have seen over the years. the DMs I have played with in the recent past have been extremely frugal on allowing optional rules. Not only that, but it is one of those changes that, I feel, is being done just to make it different from previous editions. "See, this edition is cooler because you do not have to use those nasty dice to create your character, you can assign points just like your favorite video games!" Sorry, to me, that's not D&D.

In the last four years, I've been in three different D&D campaigns. None of them had the option for rolling your character; two used the DMG point buy, one used the array with a samll number of additional points to spread around freely. Were we not playing D&D?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Would it be fair to say that you have been playing for a few years now, and are something of an expert gamer? See, most gamers aren't experts, and take much longer to create characters than that, especially if there is a whole stack of optional books available (can't just advise them to go 'Core only' - they wouldn't want to be penalised for not having all the options, you know).

And if that's the way of it - that it's going to take upwards of 30 minutes to create a basic character so they can start to have fun - they'll just not bother, and go and play WoW instead. The buy-in to these games is too high, and it is killing them.

Everyone's group is different.

I printed out the character generation rules for my perspective group a little over a year ago. I told them I was using 28 pt poiint buy and fixed a fixed hit points gain per level. I told them core only and they were fine with that. Had someone made a fuss they could have found another game. Using only core materials is not penalizing my players. Only those with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement have that mindset. Core rules only does a few things 1) lets me know how my players (who I'd never gamed with before that point) fare with JUST using the core rules. If there are any of the BAD types of power-gamers in the group I'd found out real quick. 2) less extraneous crap to keep track of.

After a few sessions I was able to gauge where everyone's head was at and realized that I had a good group of guys at the table and THEN I started opening up the options to use the Complete Books in addition to the core.

Also when my players were creating their core only characters, they did it over a period of a few weeks sending me info via e-mail. Since chargen, hit points and even starting gold was static it was easy enough to do an audit on each character to see if it was legit. Some players made mistakes that shorted themselves a feat or two, some players shorted themselves on hit points (forgetting to add their con bonuses) so it also served as a way to make sure the players characters got what was coming to them. Also? I hate cheating players. You get caught cheating at my table, you walk. If you cheat at something like D&D then that says something particular about your character and youre not the type of person I want at my table. Draconican, yes. But I'm running a game to have fun and I really don't have fun with cheaters, so off you go.

As far as buy in goes, I've never run into that problem ever. Usually the players I've come across have been curious enough to be patient enough to go through the character creation process in order to get to play. If I'm introducing brand new players to the game then they use pre-gens with the promise of making their oen characters later and honestly that's a big part of the DM's job with new players. Walking them through the process, step by step and making it as interesting as you can. If you lose them at that point then D&D might not be for them.


It'll be interesting to hear from playtesters when the NDA is lifted as to wether or not it took a long time to make thier characters in 4E. I mean I'm just guessing here that most of those playtesters are experts, but with 4E they'd be bumped right down to novice level most like everyone else right.

Speaking of which, does anyone know around when the NDA expires? Although I dont intend on switching I'm curious about their experiences.

 

[sjmiller]

In the last four years, I've been in three different D&D campaigns. None of them had the option for rolling your character; two used the DMG point buy, one used the array with a small number of additional points to spread around freely. Were we not playing D&D?

For you, yes, you were playing D&D. That is how you want to play the game, so it is D&D for you. For me, I would not want to play in that game. Why? In nearly every point-buy game system I have played in I have encountered more min/max, munchkin, fun-sucking "players" then I have in any other game. Point buy systems for D&D is, to me, the antithesis of fun. For me, one of the core aspects of D&D is rolling up your character. So for me, what you were playing was not the kind of D&D I want to play. It is, however, the kind of D&D that you want to play. That is all I have been triyng to say.

 

[sjmiller]

Fails Will save and gives into to the corruption of message board...

Opens draft of PHB, goes to chapter 1, page six, and looks at last paragraph regarding Determining Your Ability Scores and low and behold you can still roll dice to determine ability scores. It says so on page 7 in the third paragraph. But if you like to use the Standard Ability Array you can do that too, it says so on page 7. Not happy? Wait there is more. If you want to use a Customized Array you can do that as well, it says so. Where you ask? If you guessed it is on page 7 you get a

Mr. Rouse, I ask you, in your draft of the Players' Handbook, what is the default method of character creation? What is the method used in any examples (if there are any)? What is the method that everyone is assumed to be using when you talk about everything else in that book? If that system is the point buy system, then that is the system that most DMs will expect their players to use. Asking to use alternate or optional systems is not always possible, since a DM can rightly say that it is alternate or optional. If that is the system that most DMs will expect you to use, and it is a method you do not like, or do not find adds to the fun of the game, then there's no reason to be playing that game, is there? That's what I am trying to say. I am not saying that a point buy system is wrong, I am just saying it is wrong for me.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

I'm so glad to see dice-pool, point-buy, and array as player build options in the PHB.

It's much easier to say, "choose your path" or "we'll be using this one" in just one book.

 

[kennew142]

I much prefer rolling characters - the results create more more roleplay surprises. I always loved the crew rolling 3D6 down the line and then wondering, who the heck am I going to be? That was always terrific fun and produced our most memorable characters. But this is before the days of the Game Balance Nazis.

Point buy characters are always dull and one-dimensional. Wow, another wizard with a 18 INT and 8 STR? Really, how surprising. Amazing, another table full of CHA 8 heroes. However, point buy is the best option if you are playing online or RPGA or other situation where group chargen with the DM would not be possible so I see why they would promote it considering how much point buy systems are used in video games.

It's great that you can tell what our characters are like without ever having been at one of our games. How perceptive of you.

It's pure ignorance to assume that everyone who plays the game differently from you plays with characters who are always dull and one-dimensional. I'm pretty sure no one would make a claim like that without, at the very least, having some facts to back up their opinions. All of the groups I play with have been using the point buy system since the advent of D&D 3.0. Guess what? I've never seen a single character with an unadjusted ability score higher than 16, nor have I seen any characters with a CHA score of 8 (except for half-orcs and dwarves).

I will freely admit that my examples are purely anecdotal. How about yours? Do you even have that?

BTW, RPGA and online games are completely different from home games. Comparing RPGA characters and online game characters to characters in a home game is counter-productive, since only the latter can focus on character driven stories and in-depth storytelling.

The anecdotal evidence I have for characters with 'random' ability scores is exactly the opposite of that for point-buy characters. I've been gaming since 1979. Do you have any idea how many 'randomly generated' fighters I've seen with 18/00 STR or wizards with 18 INT? Let's just say that the laws of probability obviously do not apply in some gaming circles.

It is my opinion that players who build dull and one-dimensional characters will do so, regardless of what system they use to create their characters.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Mr. Rouse, I ask you, in your draft of the Players' Handbook, what is the default method of character creation? What is the method used in any examples (if there are any)? What is the method that everyone is assumed to be using when you talk about everything else in that book? If that system is the point buy system, then that is the system that most DMs will expect their players to use. Asking to use alternate or optional systems is not always possible, since a DM can rightly say that it is alternate or optional. If that is the system that most DMs will expect you to use, and it is a method you do not like, or do not find adds to the fun of the game, then there's no reason to be playing that game, is there? That's what I am trying to say. I am not saying that a point buy system is wrong, I am just saying it is wrong for me.

I am 38 years old, have long hair, wear blue jeans with un-tucked western shirts, and drink beer from the bottle, so please stop calling me Mr. Rouse unless you want my dad to start posting answers.

Now on to your question. There are three methods to generating Ability Scores as mentioned before. When referring to a Ability Scores in the Racial Traits section it refers when you assign your scores not how you derived them. In the basics of describing character creation it just says you "Generate Your Ability Scores". There is no default from what I can see as there are three options

 

[catsclaw227]

Mr. Rouse, I ask you, in your draft of the Players' Handbook, what is the default method of character creation? What is the method used in any examples (if there are any)? What is the method that everyone is assumed to be using when you talk about everything else in that book? If that system is the point buy system, then that is the system that most DMs will expect their players to use. Asking to use alternate or optional systems is not always possible, since a DM can rightly say that it is alternate or optional. If that is the system that most DMs will expect you to use, and it is a method you do not like, or do not find adds to the fun of the game, then there's no reason to be playing that game, is there? That's what I am trying to say. I am not saying that a point buy system is wrong, I am just saying it is wrong for me.

First, I imagine that it would be extraordinarily difficult to balance against rolling the stats, since the variance in results would be too high. Second, I imagine that point buy and standard arrays are fairly similar and therefore the rules could be balanced against both with out much relative variance.

I would bet on the fact that rolling dice is not the first option listed in the book, but it still sits alongside all the others. Aaron Anderson did not get preferential treatment over Zachary Zinnabar when I was in 2nd grade.