New Design & Development: Paladin Smites!

[mmu1]

I really do NOT like their idea of how to "simplify" gameplay.

In this case, they give the Paladin the ability to cause all kinds of effects - increasing AC, healing, an ability that you can click to interrupt spellcasting - but in order to keep things manageable, they appear to be strictly tied to hitting something in combat.

That way, the idea presumbaly goes, you're reminded to use it whenever you make an attack, and don't have to keep track of how many spell slots, or uses of positive energy, or whatever, you have left, because it's automatically tied in to just one ability (smite) that you need to keep track of.

Aside from the fact that in play, this actually promises to be a lot more complicated than 3.5 (more special abilities, more complexity - duh), what bothers me is the issue of whether you'll be able to use any of these newly-acquired magical abilities outside of combat, or independently of swinging a weapon - and if not, why not? (aside from the desire to keep things "simple" from a mechanical point of view) Frankly, the thought that now you can boost AC, heal at range and exercise mind-control or compulsion magic - just as long as you're smiting something while you do it - strikes me as completely idiotic.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

So far the most I've seen is people saying they can't stand WotC to impart it's own flavor into the mechanics. They want to be able to make up their own reasons for events to happen.

So, they finally leave out the flavor and give us straight mechanic, giving no reason as to why things are happening and people still complain?

Welcome to the 4e forum!

:\

 

[BryonD]

I dunno. I have some flavor issues with:

Paladin: "The Gods in their greatness and mercy have granted me the power to cure wounds."
Farmer: "Wonderful! So you can heal my hurt child?"
Paladin: "Well, I can only heal while punching someone in the face."
Farmer: "What? You need to hit me to heal my child? I guess so..."
Paladin: "Well, really it requires murderous intent. Maybe you have a spare chicken I can smoosh?"
Farmer: "Who did you say you worshipped again?"

And I'd have a problem with that also.
But being able to harness the mystic energy in a smite to cause some other effect is not the same as being restricted to smite energy as the only way to get there.
What you have described is not what I said.

And even with that I don't think the implementation shown here is that good.
I'm just ok with the concept.

 

[Traycor]

At level 10, you would have 10 smites/slots known, 5-6 smites ready to use, and possibly 2-3 stances that were available all the time.

Wizards has stated that high level characters will be just as simple to make and to play as low lvl chars. My guess is that lower lvl smites will be overwritten by the higher smite and take their place. Thus the players has to decide which smiting ability they like best.

Hard choices in character progression: Win!

 

[DM_Blake]

Many people seem hung up on the smite+heal or smite+AC mechinic. There are comments about how it doesn't make sense that a paladin can swing at a monster and, hit or miss, some random friend 20' away gets a bonus to AC.

And those people are right, assuming the AC bonus has a cause/effect relationship with the attack.

But it is not a cause/effect relationship. The attack does not casue the side effect.

Think of it this way.

In a world where magic actually works, and people learn how to control magic to the greatest effect, it stands to reason that users of magic would find ways to do more than one thing at once. It's just more efficient.

Why shouldn't a wizard learn how to cast a single spell that gives him Mage Armor, Mirror Image, and Blur, all at once, and casts Magic Missile at an enemy. Very efficient. Imagine the first round of combat with such a mage. He gets up 3 powerful defensive spells and he blasts an enemy with an attack spell.

If wizards COULD do this, they absolutely WOULD do this.

Of course, it is hard to balance game mechanics. If the real world is a game, then the game designer keeps everything balanced and nobody gets the ability to do things that everyone cannot do. So, in D&D, because it is a game, wizards cannot combine all of that into a single spell.

But if it were real life, you can bet some wizards would be looking for a way to do exactly that.

Same goes for these paladin smites.

Paladins want to smite enemies. Paladins want to heal allies. Paladins want to shield their companions from harm.

So, they've finally figured out a way to combine some of these effects into a single prayer to their god.

I think that's a fairly cool idea from a viewpoint of roleplaying. Finally people can actually manipulate magic, or divine channeling, to make it efficient, rather than just memorizing age-old formulas to do one thing at a time.

What will be really cool is when all the other classes learn how to do this too. Maybe wizards will be able to combine effects like I described. Maybe clerics can bless and cure in a single round. Maybe rogues can pick pocket and sneak attack at the same time. Maybe fighters can trip and disarm at the same time.

Now, finally, the characters, NPCs, and monsters are taking control of magic and making it work for them, instead of following straightjacket rules.

 

[neceros]

Wizards has stated that high level characters will be just as simple to make and to play as low lvl chars. My guess is that the higher lvl smites will over right the old smite and take its place. Thus the players has to decide which smiting ability they like best.

Hard choices in character progression: Win!

That would be horrible.

 

[Smerg]

I really do NOT like their idea of how to "simplify" gameplay.

...

Aside from the fact that in play, this actually promises to be a lot more complicated than 3.5 (more special abilities, more complexity - duh), what bothers me is the issue of whether you'll be able to use any of these newly-acquired magical abilities outside of combat, or independently of swinging a weapon - and if not, why not? (aside from the desire to keep things "simple" from a mechanical point of view) Frankly, the thought that now you can boost AC, heal at range and exercise mind-control or compulsion magic - just as long as you're smiting something while you do it - strikes me as completely idiotic.

Just a word of note on simplify.

It does not mean neuter.

WotC means simplify by saying that all things will be roll d20 and add modifiers. It means that all classes have similar progressions. It means that monsters will have similar layouts.

Again, similar does not mean identical. There is plenty of room for variety.

Magic the Gathering has basically simple mechanics with similar layouts. This still allows for thousands of possabilities.

WotC is aiming for players and DMs to focus less on having to look up the special table for Turn Undead or the seperate chart of modifiers for Grapple and have all of these things under one similar system.

Again, similar does not mean exactly identical as there is room to reflect that a Wizard using a wand is different from a fighter with sword and shield.

 

[BryonD]

Just a word of note on simplify.

It does not mean neuter.

In the 4E context it has been a concern of mine for a few weeks that it may mean exactly that.

 

[neceros]

Welcome to the 4e forum!

:\

One day humans will be united. Unfortunately, that's the day we'll all be dead I swear.

In the 4E context it has been a concern of mine for a few weeks that it may mean exactly that.

How do you figure? I have yet to see the death sentence in 4E that people are exclaiming about.

 

[Kintara]

Paladins won't have more than a handful of smites to use in a battle. There has to be a way to balance at will with per encounter and per day effects. I fail to see how it would be complicated to learn the smites you have and apply their effects. I mean how hard is it to heal someone when you use the healing smite?

As for the flavor, it sounds to me like Paladins are given battle-abilities by their divine patrons because they are warriors. The most logical way to allocate such a resource is to have it happen in battle. I mean why don't the gods just infuse the Paladin with all their divine might? Apparently divine power is something that comes with strings attached, and scales as you become more powerful. Smites just sound like the gods way of encouraging you to kill enemies, like you're supposed to be doing. Smites, to me, sound like spells, but the casting component is making a weapon attack (which is also enhanced).

If you want divine abilities of a less martial sort, I'm sure the cleric has plenty.

Edit: As for effects happening on a miss, specifically the fighter effect (one that we know about only second-hand), well I doubt such effects are going to be universal. The claims that it is only there to make people feel better about losing are overstated in my opinion because I doubt you'll have to use an effect like that. If you don't want that particular safety net, then don't use it. Also, I like the idea of the spear attack being some sort of spin hit with the haft. That makes sense and sounds cool. The effect matches the flavor (so it's not JUST a safety net, not that I have a problem with people using it as such).