Lord Sessadore
Explorer
You forgot about the carrier pigeons.Smoke signals? Morse code? Semaphore?
New Discussion Thread
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Dawn Raven
First Post
If I should make a seperate thread, tell me. I like less threads though. Here are some bits I had considered changing in the wiki. This is after a brief going over. I'm sure more will pop up.
Proposed Alterations:
Provide a link to the main setting in the Character Creation thread.
12 Gods:
[sblock]
The chart shows the comparison to Greek and Roman gods, however, little information is provided about most of the gods. I don't mean that an exhaustive amont of information is required but perhaps at least a “God/Goddess of X, Y, & Z. would be nice. Also, if anyone has created stories using the gods, this would be a great thing to add to the section. Remember, gods are seen as different by everyone just because person A says that they did XYZ doesn't mean that they have to according to person b.
I also feel that the Greek/Roman section could be taken out of the table and instead particular bits of information from those gods put into the section for each god/goddess below. For example, why is Apoli similar (or identical?) to apollo? Is the comparison more than that? Are the 12 gods meant to be direct embodiments of these roman/greek gods? This should be made clear on the page.
[/sblock]
PROPOSAL:
[sblock]
I feel a great advantage and indeed integral part of a living world is the effect games and characters have on the world as a whole. I do not mean world changing or altering events, but rather small things.
For example, a collective list arranged by place of the NPC's that are mentioned and used in both DM stories and PC conversations and/or backgrounds that are first PUT FORTH by said DM or PC as “usable” could be interesting and useful for others.
This is a difficult idea for me to get across, I believe. What I intend is that characters within character backgrounds and DM stories can be inter-used. For example, say DM A needs or wants a captain of a ship as a minor (or major) role in a story, and then say that DM B has already used such a captain (or a guild of captains, fleet of ships, group of sailors, etc) and is okay with allowing DM A to make use of them.
I for one, when (or if..) I run an adventure would prefer to make use of personas that would already have had interactions with players in the game. Perhaps that NPC might not have had encounters with the people in MY game but perhaps he did with those in another, and then later on it would be a point of conversation. “Oh Hey, you met Old Bob the Steward? He gave us a potion for doing XYZ for him while we were doing XYZ.”
This same format could be used for other “informal” parts of the setting. I for one would love to see some of the names and places in others backgrounds come up again. While I understand the largest issue with this is concern that certain parts of the setting would be detailed in ways that DM wanting to use that area would not like, but it should be (or rather MUST be) explained that this is completely informal. Nothing in a stated character's background is currently “canon.” Just as such, something that occurs in a game or is stated by a single player does not automatically become canon. However, a way to reference these ideas could help to new players, current players (making up stories for say, contests like JoeNotCharles recently tried) and DM's to feel more involved and inter-linked within the setting. I know that I would love for there to be a way to look at other characters from the Nest in the Laughing Gallows and weave people from their backgrounds into Les's background. Of course, it should be re-instated that making a story/background/etc does not automatically force one into this.
Rather it is something that must be stated clearly and voluntarily to allow for your own material to be used.
[/sblock]
More thoughts: Organization
[sblock]
I've found it very difficult to find bits and pieces of information. The first page has a good start but, I feel, trails off into areas that may or may not be interesting or integral to new players and DMs. When I first looked at it, my first thought was, Why do I care how it came to be? I just want to see what IS not what almost was. I think separating this into separate sections, perhaps even a separate page would be beneficial. Additionally, character creation should have links to the thread, the page, the language section, and the race section (not sure how much of this is on different pages just shooting ideas on what I thought as I wandered around the wiki). On top of this, a standard table of links at the top or bottom or both of each page linking to major areas would help with moving around fluidly. A link to the front page, a link to character creation information, a link to Setting Intro, Daunton, Far Lands and the near lands are the first thoughts that go through my mind.
[/sblock]
Thoughts?
Proposed Alterations:
Provide a link to the main setting in the Character Creation thread.
12 Gods:
[sblock]
The chart shows the comparison to Greek and Roman gods, however, little information is provided about most of the gods. I don't mean that an exhaustive amont of information is required but perhaps at least a “God/Goddess of X, Y, & Z. would be nice. Also, if anyone has created stories using the gods, this would be a great thing to add to the section. Remember, gods are seen as different by everyone just because person A says that they did XYZ doesn't mean that they have to according to person b.
I also feel that the Greek/Roman section could be taken out of the table and instead particular bits of information from those gods put into the section for each god/goddess below. For example, why is Apoli similar (or identical?) to apollo? Is the comparison more than that? Are the 12 gods meant to be direct embodiments of these roman/greek gods? This should be made clear on the page.
[/sblock]
PROPOSAL:
[sblock]
I feel a great advantage and indeed integral part of a living world is the effect games and characters have on the world as a whole. I do not mean world changing or altering events, but rather small things.
For example, a collective list arranged by place of the NPC's that are mentioned and used in both DM stories and PC conversations and/or backgrounds that are first PUT FORTH by said DM or PC as “usable” could be interesting and useful for others.
This is a difficult idea for me to get across, I believe. What I intend is that characters within character backgrounds and DM stories can be inter-used. For example, say DM A needs or wants a captain of a ship as a minor (or major) role in a story, and then say that DM B has already used such a captain (or a guild of captains, fleet of ships, group of sailors, etc) and is okay with allowing DM A to make use of them.
I for one, when (or if..) I run an adventure would prefer to make use of personas that would already have had interactions with players in the game. Perhaps that NPC might not have had encounters with the people in MY game but perhaps he did with those in another, and then later on it would be a point of conversation. “Oh Hey, you met Old Bob the Steward? He gave us a potion for doing XYZ for him while we were doing XYZ.”
This same format could be used for other “informal” parts of the setting. I for one would love to see some of the names and places in others backgrounds come up again. While I understand the largest issue with this is concern that certain parts of the setting would be detailed in ways that DM wanting to use that area would not like, but it should be (or rather MUST be) explained that this is completely informal. Nothing in a stated character's background is currently “canon.” Just as such, something that occurs in a game or is stated by a single player does not automatically become canon. However, a way to reference these ideas could help to new players, current players (making up stories for say, contests like JoeNotCharles recently tried) and DM's to feel more involved and inter-linked within the setting. I know that I would love for there to be a way to look at other characters from the Nest in the Laughing Gallows and weave people from their backgrounds into Les's background. Of course, it should be re-instated that making a story/background/etc does not automatically force one into this.
Rather it is something that must be stated clearly and voluntarily to allow for your own material to be used.
[/sblock]
More thoughts: Organization
[sblock]
I've found it very difficult to find bits and pieces of information. The first page has a good start but, I feel, trails off into areas that may or may not be interesting or integral to new players and DMs. When I first looked at it, my first thought was, Why do I care how it came to be? I just want to see what IS not what almost was. I think separating this into separate sections, perhaps even a separate page would be beneficial. Additionally, character creation should have links to the thread, the page, the language section, and the race section (not sure how much of this is on different pages just shooting ideas on what I thought as I wandered around the wiki). On top of this, a standard table of links at the top or bottom or both of each page linking to major areas would help with moving around fluidly. A link to the front page, a link to character creation information, a link to Setting Intro, Daunton, Far Lands and the near lands are the first thoughts that go through my mind.
[/sblock]
Thoughts?
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Lord Sessadore
Explorer
Sounds pretty good to me, Raven. I've raked my brains for a few comments and suggestions ... well, maybe not 'few' 
.
[sblock=12 Gods]Disclaimer: I consider myself a bit of a Greek mythology geek, so I'm probably thinking about this a bit more in-depth than most L4W members.
On the 12 Gods, I was thinking that the parallel to the Greek/Roman gods is more a point of reference. It connects them to a group of more or less well known figures in mythology, making it easier to detail them, since there's so much detail and myth about them already available. For example, their various titles and the symbolism associated with each, as well as general spheres of influence and behavioural traits.
But even then, the gods of classical Greco-Roman mythology were certainly not always consistent between stories (heck, most often the stories have multiple versions), and there are definitely large differences between the Greek and Roman conceptions of each deity, so tying L4W's pantheon to the Greco-Roman pantheon doesn't really pin anyone down. [/sblock]
[sblock=Shared NPCs]As for the sharing of characters between stories, I think that's a great idea. The tricky part is the consent issue: I agree that people should only be able to use those personae and organizations that the creators have consented to, but then you need involvement of the whole community to build the list of 'useable' characters. It's tricky, like I said, but I don't think it's impossible. Definitely a worthwhile pursuit, in any case. Tying the world together like that is a valuable opportunity in a living world, so we should take advantage of it - it should make things a lot more cooler and interesting. [/sblock]
[sblock=Organization] About formatting and links and such, I also have a few ideas. If I can find some time I might work a bit on this too, but I thought I'd throw out my ideas in case anyone else wants to run with them.
I think it would be good to have a sort of 'table of contents' page, sort of like covaithe suggested in another thread. Basically just a page with a list of links, each one going to the central page of a section of the wiki. It would take some crawling to figure out what the ideal sections would be, but, say, a link to the character creation section, a link to the character sheets section, another to the setting info section, etc... Depending on the size of the table of contents, it could either be included as a section on the main page or as a separate page, with a link to it on the main page.
I think it would be a good move to put a link to the main L4W page in every L4W page (except perhaps character sheets or the like), especially if/once the table of contents is in place. If there are enough pages to group them into sections (as I suggested above when I was talking about the table of contents), it would also likely be a good idea to link each page in a section to the central page of that section.
One last small thing I was thinking about: putting links in each of the character list pages to the others. As far as I know, we've got 3 character lists: one which contains all L4W character sheets with no regard to approval or submission; the Approved Characters list, and the Requesting Approval list. All I was thinking was putting a link to the other two lists at the top of each list.
I think that's for now. Hopefully it made some sense and didn't bore anyone out of their skulls. Like I said, if I get some time I might do some work on this as well, but I can't really make any promises.
EDIT: Seems you've added a bit since I started typing. Those are some good ideas, similar to what I was thinking. I think if the list of main sections is small enough (which I imagine it should be), having a standardized "navigation bar" somewhere on each page would be a good move. Probably be easiest to implement that as a template or something ... I'm not too familiar with the capabilities of the wiki, but there's got to be something better than copy-&-pasting the same set of links into the bottom of each page.[/sblock]
Thoughts on my thoughts?
.[sblock=12 Gods]Disclaimer: I consider myself a bit of a Greek mythology geek, so I'm probably thinking about this a bit more in-depth than most L4W members.
On the 12 Gods, I was thinking that the parallel to the Greek/Roman gods is more a point of reference. It connects them to a group of more or less well known figures in mythology, making it easier to detail them, since there's so much detail and myth about them already available. For example, their various titles and the symbolism associated with each, as well as general spheres of influence and behavioural traits.
But even then, the gods of classical Greco-Roman mythology were certainly not always consistent between stories (heck, most often the stories have multiple versions), and there are definitely large differences between the Greek and Roman conceptions of each deity, so tying L4W's pantheon to the Greco-Roman pantheon doesn't really pin anyone down. [/sblock]
[sblock=Shared NPCs]As for the sharing of characters between stories, I think that's a great idea. The tricky part is the consent issue: I agree that people should only be able to use those personae and organizations that the creators have consented to, but then you need involvement of the whole community to build the list of 'useable' characters. It's tricky, like I said, but I don't think it's impossible. Definitely a worthwhile pursuit, in any case. Tying the world together like that is a valuable opportunity in a living world, so we should take advantage of it - it should make things a lot more cooler and interesting. [/sblock]
[sblock=Organization] About formatting and links and such, I also have a few ideas. If I can find some time I might work a bit on this too, but I thought I'd throw out my ideas in case anyone else wants to run with them.
I think it would be good to have a sort of 'table of contents' page, sort of like covaithe suggested in another thread. Basically just a page with a list of links, each one going to the central page of a section of the wiki. It would take some crawling to figure out what the ideal sections would be, but, say, a link to the character creation section, a link to the character sheets section, another to the setting info section, etc... Depending on the size of the table of contents, it could either be included as a section on the main page or as a separate page, with a link to it on the main page.
I think it would be a good move to put a link to the main L4W page in every L4W page (except perhaps character sheets or the like), especially if/once the table of contents is in place. If there are enough pages to group them into sections (as I suggested above when I was talking about the table of contents), it would also likely be a good idea to link each page in a section to the central page of that section.
One last small thing I was thinking about: putting links in each of the character list pages to the others. As far as I know, we've got 3 character lists: one which contains all L4W character sheets with no regard to approval or submission; the Approved Characters list, and the Requesting Approval list. All I was thinking was putting a link to the other two lists at the top of each list.
I think that's for now. Hopefully it made some sense and didn't bore anyone out of their skulls.
Like I said, if I get some time I might do some work on this as well, but I can't really make any promises. EDIT: Seems you've added a bit since I started typing. Those are some good ideas, similar to what I was thinking. I think if the list of main sections is small enough (which I imagine it should be), having a standardized "navigation bar" somewhere on each page would be a good move. Probably be easiest to implement that as a template or something ... I'm not too familiar with the capabilities of the wiki, but there's got to be something better than copy-&-pasting the same set of links into the bottom of each page.[/sblock]
Thoughts on my thoughts?
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covaithe
Explorer
This all sounds good. I've found myself taking notes before on established places, organizations, and NPCs (e.g. Undergrowth, Laicos, Redboots; there are tons of them in Closed Eye) and wishing I had someplace in the wiki to put them. It could be something as simple as a single page with a sentence or two for each name.
Dunamin
First Post
Just adding another thumbs up for the rearrangements. 
I've noticed the Wiki seems to be more slow to navigate around than the EN World forums, so it would be nice if most things are kept together in one main page for the setting. Basically, so you typically don't have to follow more than one link from there to get where you're going.
As to the gods, I was thinking it might be better to keep one entry for each and note in them when there are differences from the basic Daunton versions. That way, we just have 12 entries rather than 24+ which I think would make it easier for people to get an overview and compare differences.
I've noticed the Wiki seems to be more slow to navigate around than the EN World forums, so it would be nice if most things are kept together in one main page for the setting. Basically, so you typically don't have to follow more than one link from there to get where you're going.
As to the gods, I was thinking it might be better to keep one entry for each and note in them when there are differences from the basic Daunton versions. That way, we just have 12 entries rather than 24+ which I think would make it easier for people to get an overview and compare differences.
Dawn Raven
First Post
Dunamin makes a great notice. The wiki is fairly slow and I have a fiber optic connection here on campus (*grin*). So keeping alot of stuff on one page is a good go. Does anyone know if there is a way to make [*sblock*]s in the wiki? I think it could help organize if a person could just minimize stuff they didn't want to see.
Both Lord Sessadore's and Dunamin's comments as to the gods are good ideas. The reason I thoguht we should flesh it out some is because there may be people (cough, myself, cough) who know practically nothing about greek/roman gods. Jupiter/Zues? He was the leader...right? My knowledge of gods is stuck to the traditional (for my high school education) gods--Dagda, Brigit, Nuadha, and...and the really important one whose name I always forget. Anyway, I looked at the list interested in choosing a god to worship and didn't even know what most of those names were affiliated with. So at least a short sentence or two on what "portfolio" the god has would be nice.
For that bit, I'm thinking of an organization somewhat like this:
God Name
God Titles: (e.r., Mistress of the Seven Hands, Holder of the Lightning Chalice, The Huntress, Singer of the World Above)
Portfolio: (Skies, Fire, Thunder, Civilization, Death...)
Blurb on general Daunton appearance: Affiliated churches, statues depicting their presence.
Link or sblock of additional information that is not canon: Stories made up by players mentioned in game, stuff used in campaigns, stuf mentioned in backgrounds, etc.
and of course, keep each section for each god together despite the different names and appearances of each in the different areas.
Thought:
Covaithe, this list you have, is most of it accepted by thsoe who made it as allowable for broader use? To all: Do you think crafting a thread for people to put characters, places and information that they are okay with others using would be an efficient way to begin data collection? Additionally, requirements for each should be set. For example:
NPCs:
Name, title (barkeep, pirate, priest, cleric, shopkeeper)
Location (Last used/seen Daunton, lives Bacarte)
Physical: (Tall, dark-skinned, brown eyes, big muscles)
Quirk/Trait: (Carries sword from grandfather, has a ship named the Gull's Roost, etc)
Place:
Name
General Location (Island location, city location)
Important Events (Games that occurred here)
People: (Perhaps just the names of NPC's that were used/are here)
Both Lord Sessadore's and Dunamin's comments as to the gods are good ideas. The reason I thoguht we should flesh it out some is because there may be people (cough, myself, cough) who know practically nothing about greek/roman gods. Jupiter/Zues? He was the leader...right? My knowledge of gods is stuck to the traditional (for my high school education) gods--Dagda, Brigit, Nuadha, and...and the really important one whose name I always forget. Anyway, I looked at the list interested in choosing a god to worship and didn't even know what most of those names were affiliated with. So at least a short sentence or two on what "portfolio" the god has would be nice.
For that bit, I'm thinking of an organization somewhat like this:
God Name
God Titles: (e.r., Mistress of the Seven Hands, Holder of the Lightning Chalice, The Huntress, Singer of the World Above)
Portfolio: (Skies, Fire, Thunder, Civilization, Death...)
Blurb on general Daunton appearance: Affiliated churches, statues depicting their presence.
Link or sblock of additional information that is not canon: Stories made up by players mentioned in game, stuff used in campaigns, stuf mentioned in backgrounds, etc.
and of course, keep each section for each god together despite the different names and appearances of each in the different areas.
Thought:
Covaithe, this list you have, is most of it accepted by thsoe who made it as allowable for broader use? To all: Do you think crafting a thread for people to put characters, places and information that they are okay with others using would be an efficient way to begin data collection? Additionally, requirements for each should be set. For example:
NPCs:
Name, title (barkeep, pirate, priest, cleric, shopkeeper)
Location (Last used/seen Daunton, lives Bacarte)
Physical: (Tall, dark-skinned, brown eyes, big muscles)
Quirk/Trait: (Carries sword from grandfather, has a ship named the Gull's Roost, etc)
Place:
Name
General Location (Island location, city location)
Important Events (Games that occurred here)
People: (Perhaps just the names of NPC's that were used/are here)
JoeNotCharles
First Post
Yeah, the slowness is the main reason I haven't even read much of the wiki - it's just painful sometimes.
covaithe
Explorer
sblocks in the wiki... well, see here and here for some things to try, but a) I don't know if those work in ENWorld's wiki, and b) I'm not sure it's a terribly good idea. I feel like it would be better to have it all in the open. Maybe that's just a personal preference, though; what do you guys think?
Regarding the notes I have on places and organizations and such... I think most of it doesn't belong to anyone in particular, it's just things that came up in the course of an adventure. The only NPC in either Hoofchew or Closed Eye that isn't public, that I can think of, is Doddoddod. Here's a copy/paste of excerpts of my notes from Closed Eye, just for an idea:
People and organizations:
Places
It seems like this sort of information would be of general interest. What I'd like to avoid is having to do a lot of work to put those in the wiki, reformatting and whatnot.
Regarding the notes I have on places and organizations and such... I think most of it doesn't belong to anyone in particular, it's just things that came up in the course of an adventure. The only NPC in either Hoofchew or Closed Eye that isn't public, that I can think of, is Doddoddod. Here's a copy/paste of excerpts of my notes from Closed Eye, just for an idea:
People and organizations:
- the L'irkash family. Is a family involved in shipping. They have been successful, to the point that it's said that a ship flying the L'irkash flag is lucky. But the rumor in the Screamer that their wedding rituals involve human sacrifice is causing them real problems, and they're losing market share and social standing in Daunton.
- the Glasston family. One of Daunton's founding families. Old, rich, wealthy, influential. Don't mix with the commoners much.
- Yarg. A priest and arcane researcher with an interest in forbidden knowledge. Deceased? Though he himself was not evil, he wrote very clear, detailed books explaining the darker side of certain arcane subjects, which in the wrong hands are easily abused. Most of his books are destroyed or heavily restricted. Knew Karrimon, but considered him an inferior practitioner.
- Karrimon - a wizard and a member of the Crossroaders. Deceased. Knew Yarg.
- Vim'gra't - Teh crusty old senior librarian at the Daunton Library. Has control of the restricted stacks, and is reluctant to give anyone access except in a secure room, where the materials they want are brought to them for supervised study.
- Lazlo - gullible young librarian. Has a bit of hero-worship for adventurers, particularly wizards, and will go out of his way to help them, if he can get Vim'Gra't to let him get away with it.
- Joss Vander-Mark, a young and excessively shiny guardsman fresh out of the military. Rumored to have ratted out Captain West for corruption. Often assigned to noble areas, since he is better at looking good than getting things done in areas where there is actual crime. Lieutenant-Deputy for the region where the Glasstons live.
- Lady Glasston, an elderly dame from one of Orussus' founding families. Considers lying beneath her. Perhaps not as well off as she'd like people to believe?
- Miss Dodridge, housekeeper for the Glasstons. A middle aged, matronly woman with a sense of humor. Doesn't put up with Palindrome's crap.
- Adie, a serving girl working for the Glasstons. Is she mentally handicapped, or under some kind of magical effect? Or just very eccentric?
- Spinthresh, a tutor employed by the Glasstons, presumably for Arnest.
Places
- Cobblestop. This is the arcanists area of the city. It consists of a hill, surmounted by the Shattered Spire.
- Scholar's plaza. A public square in Cobblestop.
- The Dusty Quill, a shop owned by Marco. Conveniently located near Scholar's plaza.
- Daunton Library, restricted stacks. Fairly secure; entrance is only permitted while accompanied by an authorized guide. Powerful divine magics protect it, possibly directly by the hands of Mireva herself. Whatever the protecting power is, it intervenes directly to prevent fire, but does not seem to concern itself with petty theft.
- the Golden Snowflake, a boarding house in the affluent part of the city. The Golden Snowflake is a upscale establishment frequented by the sons and daughters of nobility and some wealthier merchants. It typically houses people for months rather than days renting out furnished aartments and is considered a hub of the social scene amongst the younger nobles.
It seems like this sort of information would be of general interest. What I'd like to avoid is having to do a lot of work to put those in the wiki, reformatting and whatnot.
Dawn Raven
First Post
That is why I proposed a standard format. And perhaps a thread for people to put their information in. I'd be fine updating the wiki once a week with any information put into here. Obviously, anyone could put their own stuff in as long as they use whatever format is decided upon.
Another thing, Covaithe, do you have any sources for uh..like wiki-programming? Or something? I would like to implement the table of contents idea and a family/table of links at the top of each page linking to important places but know -nothing- about programming. I'm fairly technologically inept.
Another thing, Covaithe, do you have any sources for uh..like wiki-programming? Or something? I would like to implement the table of contents idea and a family/table of links at the top of each page linking to important places but know -nothing- about programming. I'm fairly technologically inept.
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
I'm a relative beginner to wiki programming myself, but I pick up programming fast (I should, by now!) I'll take a look this evening or on the weekend and see if I can dig up some guides or something, but if someone knows already fire away.
Edit: Well, here's this for starters: ENWiki Help. If you'd like, I can see about figuring out how to implement our table of contents, if you can provide me with the links.
Edit: Well, here's this for starters: ENWiki Help. If you'd like, I can see about figuring out how to implement our table of contents, if you can provide me with the links.
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