D&D 5E New DM: Lost Mines question and Passive Perception?

[Agravain]

Hi All, glad I found this forum, it looks like it's going to be invaluable as a new DM. We started the Lost Mines campaign from the Starter Set a couple of nights ago and ran into some rules questions. Hoping someone will give some clarification on how they handle these situations.

1. In the goblin surprise attack, it specifically says that goblins cannot be surprised in the text. A wood elf rogue in our group managed to do just that though, and I wasn't sure how (or if I should) stop it. He goes up the embankment, makes a stealth role, and surprises the goblins on one side. Because they never beat his stealth role, the goblins on the other side never see him and he basically ends up killing 3 of the 4 with his bow. Now, it also says the terrain is thick brush which made me believe that it would be very hard to stealth through it trying to surprise someone that is basically waiting for him and watched him go up the embankment, but again, I was unsure how to play that.

2. Next part was the traps on the trail. The text says that unless the characters say they are looking for traps, the first person in the group get trapped. The first person argued their passive perception is very high and they would have noticed the traps. My opinion was that makes a high passive perception pretty powerful since I would basically have to give everything away to the player without any role playing involved because he doesn't really have to indicate he is looking for anything, his high passive perception simply gives it to him. Thoughts?

 

[iserith]

Hi All, glad I found this forum, it looks like it's going to be invaluable as a new DM. We started the Lost Mines campaign from the Starter Set a couple of nights ago and ran into some rules questions. Hoping someone will give some clarification on how they handle these situations.

1. In the goblin surprise attack, it specifically says that goblins cannot be surprised in the text. A wood elf rogue in our group managed to do just that though, and I wasn't sure how (or if I should) stop it. He goes up the embankment, makes a stealth role, and surprises the goblins on one side. Because they never beat his stealth role, the goblins on the other side never see him and he basically ends up killing 3 of the 4 with his bow. Now, it also says the terrain is thick brush which made me believe that it would be very hard to stealth through it trying to surprise someone that is basically waiting for him and watched him go up the embankment, but again, I was unsure how to play that.

I imagine the adventure text says the goblins cannot be surprised because they are lying in wait for anyone approaching the dead horses. If the wood elf PC didn't approach the dead horses and instead moved in such a way as to get a jump on the goblins' position, then I think you made a good call as DM.

The thick brush might be difficult terrain which might slow down movement. It might also be considered cover which imparts a bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws to the goblins. But even if you forgot that, it's okay.

2. Next part was the traps on the trail. The text says that unless the characters say they are looking for traps, the first person in the group get trapped. The first person argued their passive perception is very high and they would have noticed the traps. My opinion was that makes a high passive perception pretty powerful since I would basically have to give everything away to the player without any role playing involved because he doesn't really have to indicate he is looking for anything, his high passive perception simply gives it to him. Thoughts?

While traveling, it's important to get the marching order of the characters and find out what each of them is doing. Generally, a character is just keeping an eye out for hidden threats when traveling. Sometimes though they might do something that is kind of distracting such as navigating, tracking, foraging, or map-making. In that case, they don't have a chance of noticing hidden threats and may be surprised by sneaking monsters or stumble into traps - passive Perception doesn't apply.

So the question remains whether the person who argued with you had established that the character was on the lookout for hidden threats while traveling. While I don't think it's a good idea to assume what players are having their characters do, it's generally safe to assume that unless the players tell you otherwise, the adventurers are keeping an eye out for danger. In which case, you can apply their passive Perception to determining whether or not they notice the lurking monster or hidden trap.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You're going to have to get used to making rulings, 5e depends upon you, as the DM, to do so. You can't play the game without a DM to make rulings. When a player tries to do something, you rule whether it succeeds, fails, or is uncertain - in which case you call for a check, say whether/which proficiency applies and set a DC. That's all you. The module tries to do that for you, some, since it is an introductory module. Thus the text saying that the goblins couldn't be surprised and the trap could only be found if actively searched for - those are DM rulings done for you to make your first DMing experience easier and more manageable, but they're not rules and the next ambush or trap could work very differently if you want it to.

 

[wedgeski]

Welcome to the board!

I don't have the text with me right now but I do recall the first chapter or two making a pig's ear of what Perception means in 5E and how it works.

1. You imply the goblins saw the elf before he stealthed out of sight and went up the embankment. If so, they're aware of him and he can't surprise them, in terms of getting a surprise round, but that doesn't mean he can't attack with advantage from a hidden position if they can't see him.

2. Yup, high Passive Perception can make things difficult for the DM. I will let others more familiar with discussions on that subject take it from there!

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

I played it with a passive perception roll, which they failed!

A high passive perception doesn't make a PC all-seeing - it's possible for them to miss something. Just assume all the creatures in your world are REALLY GOOD at setting traps (due in part to eagle eyed adventurers), and assign a high DC to the chance of spotting stuff...

 

[Agravain]

Thanks for all the replies, that does clear things up some.

1. You imply the goblins saw the elf before he stealthed out of sight and went up the embankment. If so, they're aware of him and he can't surprise them, in terms of getting a surprise round, but that doesn't mean he can't attack with advantage from a hidden position if they can't see him.

Interesting, so he gave me an example of a halfling rogue that could potentially hide behind a human for cover and stealth from there to get a surprise attack with his opponents looking right at the group (assuming they eventually started fighting). So his wood elf would easily disappear in thick brush. You would rule that he would simply get an advantage on attack roles from a hidden position, but not get a surprise attack from this?

 

[Noctem]

Correct. Surprise is all about being aware of a threat or not. When an encounter starts, anyone not aware of a threat when the encounter begins can be subject to surprise based on DM fiat. IF someone can see you move behind an ally when you go to hide, he's aware of you. If the DM decides that the observer also considers the person hiding a threat, then surprise is out the window

 

[Cody C. Lewis]

I played it with a passive perception roll, which they failed!

A high passive perception doesn't make a PC all-seeing - it's possible for them to miss something. Just assume all the creatures in your world are REALLY GOOD at setting traps (due in part to eagle eyed adventurers), and assign a high DC to the chance of spotting stuff...

This kind of comes off as cheap to me. IDK, it just seems like this is not only not rewarding players for their character design, but is also kind of cheating them out of it in the first place.

But I agree PP is frustrating as a DM who is working hard to give his players a memorable experience.

 

[iserith]

But I agree PP is frustrating as a DM who is working hard to give his players a memorable experience.

What is frustrating about it?

 

[Psikerlord#]

i suggest not using passive perception at all and just rolling all the time. works well and avoids the problems passive perception creates (in my view PP adds nothing helpful to the game, it is a recent invention, dnd wise).