New DM Quest Rewards available on DM's Guild

[Scorpienne]

I feel like you've not actually played with a true min-maxer at your table. For those who aren't min-maxers, few things are as demoralizing and un-fun than simply not being able to contribute in a significant manner because the min-maxer simply overloads the adventure.

A very good example of simple min-maxing cutting down on enjoyment for other players: Having 1 or more wizards with Simulacrums of themself at the table in high level play, and not being one of those wizards. A simulacrum is basically a spell designed to let a high level wizard hog the table play for themselves - multiple full spells in a turn, multiple concentration spells at the same time, etc. It reduces other characters entirely to meat shields.

This is when a wise DM steps in to fix things so that one player doesn't hog the spotlight. We have DM empowerment for a reason.

Paige

 

[Steve_MND]

I suppose you must be right - I've never played with someone who was intentionally trying to break the game or make it unfun for other players. But that seems like a problem with the player, rather than the system. It's unfortunate, but you can't legislate jerkiness away. I'm sorry if you're stuck DMing for fun suckers.

This sort of stuff has nothing to do with intent or not -- just by virtue of being a min-maxer, it can sap the fun out of the game for a lot of other players by essentially causing their 'average' character to be effectively useless in comparison. When you're running around doing your 1d8+4 longsword shot each round, and then somebody comes along with a monster that casually is doing many multiples of your damage in each shot, it can be disheartening -- even if the other player isn't trying to be a dick about it. When the rest of the party ends up being relegated to the 'cohorts' of the one guys that barrels through the mod, the game suffers. Has nothing to do with intent, or being a dick, or even really AL in specific -- that is a result of mixing minmaxers with 'average' characters all the time, in any game. In home campaigns, those types of players extremes tend to gravitate towards each other in campaigns that are more suited to their preferred playstyles. You seldom have that homogenous option in an OP campaign, however.

This is when a wise DM steps in to fix things so that one player doesn't hog the spotlight. We have DM empowerment for a reason.

Except he's not hogging the spotlight. His min-maxed stats and character are, just by virtue of existing. The player could be interacting with nothing, saying absolutely nothing, and doing absolutely nothing but silently rolling his dice when it comes to his turn, and it can still be disheartening when you start to realize that you and your character are really mostly superfluous to the entire mod's outcome thanks to this guy. And its not even his intent to make you feel that way; you just can't compete with a minmaxed character if you yourself aren't similarly minmaxed.

 

[Aaron Berkowitz]

I hadn't really considered the angle of 'hey, I'll DM now so that I can launch a new character who's already min-maxed with magic items and feats, just the way I want it, and I won't even have to deal with the horribly inefficient low levels where I might decide the effort isn't worth it".

I think a lot of folks on this thread are overestimating how much "damage" a player can do with these new DM Rewards. It's true that someone could "cheat the system" by earning their 3000 xp for the social media tasks. That would put a character up to level 4, which isn't really all that high. They'd also be starting with 0 downtime, and so would have to play 2-4 DDEX or DDAL adventures before they would be eligible to "Catch Up" to Tier 2, and at that point they probably leveled up to level 5 through playing.


All of the other rewards require people to actually DM an adventure. As these rewards are meant to incentivize people to DM, I don't see why that's a problem. The particular reward that seems to be causing the most concern is the "Dedicated DM" reward, which allows a DM to gain a magic item. To recieve this reward, you must DM 7 DDAL/DDEX adventures. Assuming that the hypothetical person trying to game the system only runs the shortest adventures available, this is still a 14 hour investment in DMing, most likely spread across almost two months real time. While DMing these adventures, the player's characters are only earning about 1/4 of the xp of the PCs and is gaining a single "tier appropriate" magic item. Meanwhile, the other players (assuming a 7 player table) are all receiving full xp and, most likely, at least one magic item relevant for their class. These items are not necessarily "tier appropraite" - I ran DDEX3-7 a week or so ago, which is a Tier 2 adventure, and the magic item in the adventure was a Very Rare Oathbow. This item wouldn't be available for an equivalent DM Reward character unless it was Tier 3.


That brings me to my next point, which is that the examples given above about horribly optimized characters and broken mechanics seem to imply that high-level play is a common part of Adventurer's League. Simulacrum, for instance, is a 7th level spell. In order to cast it, a PC would need to be level 13. Right now (unless I'm missing one) there is exactly 1 DDEX adventure that is playable by a 13th level character. (There are also the Epics, AO and hardbacks, but the number of Tier 3 games in AL must be exceedingly small.) The idea that a level 13 character (who has earned 120,000 xp) might be quite powerful doesn't bother me in the slightest.


And as for the fear that a player might choose to DM for an entire season to game the system and get a character into Tier 3, with great magic items, etc., the math really doesn't work out. Let's assume the worst case scenario - a player who has been DMing for 40 years and who DMed the last 4 seasons of AL (16,000 xp), runs all 14 DDAL adventures *and* Curse of Strahd this season (61,200 xp, assuming they did the LE as well) and even finds time to run DDAL4-1 five times (an extra 10,000 xp for Deja Vu and Teacher of Lost Souls), they would receive a whopping 87,200 xp, putting them at level 11. They would also start off with 4 magic items from Dedicated DM and Agent of the Tarokka and Barovian Noble, a common scroll or potion, an uncommon potion, an uncommon scroll, and a rare potion or scroll.


In the process, they would have spent the entire season (March-July) DMing - far more than 30 sessions for possibly over 100 different players. That seems like a remarkable amount of work for someone to "cheat the system" and get a powerful PC. Presumably, a player who played the same character through DDEX/DDAL material over the course of those five months would end up with a comparable character (or one of even higher power level), and they would have had the fun of playing the game, too.

 

[Aaron Berkowitz]

This sort of stuff has nothing to do with intent or not -- just by virtue of being a min-maxer, it can sap the fun out of the game for a lot of other players by essentially causing their 'average' character to be effectively useless in comparison. When you're running around doing your 1d8+4 longsword shot each round, and then somebody comes along with a monster that casually is doing many multiples of your damage in each shot, it can be disheartening -- even if the other player isn't trying to be a dick about it. When the rest of the party ends up being relegated to the 'cohorts' of the one guys that barrels through the mod, the game suffers. Has nothing to do with intent, or being a dick, or even really AL in specific -- that is a result of mixing minmaxers with 'average' characters all the time, in any game. In home campaigns, those types of players extremes tend to gravitate towards each other in campaigns that are more suited to their preferred playstyles. You seldom have that homogenous option in an OP campaign, however.



Except he's not hogging the spotlight. His min-maxed stats and character are, just by virtue of existing. The player could be interacting with nothing, saying absolutely nothing, and doing absolutely nothing but silently rolling his dice when it comes to his turn, and it can still be disheartening when you start to realize that you and your character are really mostly superfluous to the entire mod's outcome thanks to this guy. And its not even his intent to make you feel that way; you just can't compete with a minmaxed character if you yourself aren't similarly minmaxed.

Last time I checked, D&D wasn't a competition between players but a cooperative game where groups of PCs attempt to overcome difficulties to achieve quests. In my groups, when one of the PC wizards trivializes an encounter with a great use of a spell mechanic, or when a player uses Sharpshooter to score a massive hit on a monster, the other players are happy because they are succeeding as a group at their assigned task.

I can see how a DM might be put out by having powerful characters that overcome the challenges in front of them, but only if the DM is acting as an adversary of the players instead of as a cooperative storyteller. I'll admit that it's a lot less fun to DM a fight when all of my monsters are locked down by CC, surrounded by spike growth, etc. But I'm there to let the players have a good time, not to get my jollies by showing what a great tactician I am.

The only players I can genuinely imagine minding having an overpowered compatriot is an unsuccessful min-maxer. If I rolled my character to be a skill-monkey, or a charismatic rogue, or whatever, I'm not going to be disappointed that I have the lowest dps in the group.

 

[Pauper]

That brings me to my next point, which is that the examples given above about horribly optimized characters and broken mechanics seem to imply that high-level play is a common part of Adventurer's League. Simulacrum, for instance, is a 7th level spell. In order to cast it, a PC would need to be level 13. Right now (unless I'm missing one) there is exactly 1 DDEX adventure that is playable by a 13th level character. (There are also the Epics, AO and hardbacks, but the number of Tier 3 games in AL must be exceedingly small.) The idea that a level 13 character (who has earned 120,000 xp) might be quite powerful doesn't bother me in the slightest.

It should, if you want more content released for higher-level characters.

My own feeling is that AL would never actually release content for Tier 4 (level 17+) characters, because the power levels involved are so wonky that it's an overwhelming challenge to design something that's a challenge without being easily short-circuited by a particular build (usually some build involving wizard). WotC itself has sponsored or actually written four hard-cover campaigns, none of which is designed to go as high as 17th level; I have to think there's a reason for that.

The only players I can genuinely imagine minding having an overpowered compatriot is an unsuccessful min-maxer. If I rolled my character to be a skill-monkey, or a charismatic rogue, or whatever, I'm not going to be disappointed that I have the lowest dps in the group.

I suggest you try it sometime and see if you still feel the same way. It's not just that the optimized characters make my own character's contributions in combat seem irrelevant, but that they do minimal interaction in non-combat scenes in order to hasten the arrival of the next combat, which only exacerbates the 'why did I even show up' feeling. And making players question their decision to come out to the game is certainly not what the AL wants to encourage at their tables.

--
Pauper

 

[Steve_MND]

Last time I checked, D&D wasn't a competition between players but a cooperative game where groups of PCs attempt to overcome difficulties to achieve quests. In my groups, when one of the PC wizards trivializes an encounter with a great use of a spell mechanic, or when a player uses Sharpshooter to score a massive hit on a monster, the other players are happy because they are succeeding as a group at their assigned task.

Never mind, then. I can only assume that those of us who have seen the deleterious (even if unintentional) effect a single over-optimized minmaxer can have on a table full of casual 'want to have fun and feel useful' players are well in the minority.

 

[RulesJD]

The better way to counter min/maxers is not the DM being a bad DM by acting through fiat.

DMs need to buck up and learn how to min/max the resources they have available. First thing I do in any mod is look for a spell caster. If there is one (almost always is) and I know some (one or more) of the players are min/maxers, I'll edit their spell list for maximum effect. Greater Invis right before the players arrive + counterspell = shut down Wizard/Sorc/Warlock. If you're starting higher level, then the enemy casters will also have better spells. Watch in hilarity as the spell caster is shut down by the BBEGs/support wizard's Greater Invis'd Simulacrum who had Contingency -> Greater Invis if someone tries to Counterspell him.

There are a few spells that are monstrously powerful and DMs need to know how to use them (at higher levels) so as to counter this table behavior IF the other players aren't liking it. Stays within the rules and prevents DMs from getting pissy about "their" monsters being defeated too easily.

 

[Byakugan]

I have played plenty of games where the DM had issues focussing on his story/ideas, causing that the players basically just are riding on a train the whole time. He is telling the story TO the players instead of creating the story WITH them.

Even so, I have never played with someone who had that particular combo of personality traits where they were both willing to DM for others, but they also enjoyed hogging the limelight.

I love being able to do cool stuff with my guys. But now I don't have to decide between 'do I DM this season and get nothing, or do I play instead and that is one less DM which hurts the community pretty bad. The 'easy' rewards aren't exactly game breaking...1500 xp for sighing up on twitter and facebook. Congratulations, you can have a 3rd level dude...he gets no XP at all in death house, and the local DM is probably going to check your log. Public ostracism is a powerful deterrant.

The 5000xp rewards looked huge to me at first, then I realized that I needed like 4 of those to get my 7th level to 8th level. If someone was going to go through that much effort to cheat...go for it.

The convention rewards also look great, but I think that is totally fine. The backdrop is that they told us DMs were no longer going to get 'swag'. So this is appealing enough as a replacment.

Overall, I like the system a lot. I am considering starting a second AL day at my LGS so folks have a chance to get a lot furthur into the season. Now there is an incentive sitting right there for me to do it.

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Im yet to download the DM Rewards, but am guessing the flood of people posting selfies with the sheet is a reward? I was gonna wait until the corrections were made.

To be honest, I did some calculations the other day am Im rocking 4 characters now who have been DM Credit'd to 4-5th level. I thinking im tracking maybe 90 sessions? If I ever get to play, I have multiple characters to pick from.

 

[flametitan]

So the updated packet came with a reward card; a choice between 300 gp, Breastplate, Splint, Goggles of Night, or a Silver Raven Figurine of Wonderous Power.

I assume this can only be applied to one character, right?