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D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You have to remember, he doesn't believe that he has to back up his claims.

Mod Note:

Anyone who wants a quick trip out of this discussion, by all means, continue to make it personal.

Heck, at this point, with the repetitive nature of these threads of late - if you really want a week-long vaction from the boards, by all means, continue to make it personal. If you cannot manage your own engagement with these topics, it will be managed for you
.
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I’m not sure. I’m thinking that Not having something that looks like you in the game tends to be labeled as uninclusive. I’m interested to see the responses.

(1) Folks feeling excluded because options don't exist to play people like themselves in terms of physical apperance, LGBTQ+ status, disability status, and religion type or lack thereof, in a game system where a lot of other human beings get to... seems uninclusive to me, and very qualitatively different than (2) folks feeling excluded because they can't play whatever choice of any particular thing they happen to want to. Needing all of that variety of real world individual difference to be available in every campaign setting seems a very different matter. There don't even need to be any humans (or non-rainbow skin colored humanoids, or mammalian sexuality, or disability status differences, or real world-like religion) in a particular campaign. The reason for particularly excluding some of the options in a campaign may or may not be anti-inclusive.

Having things in the game that egregiously or consistently apply derogatory historical rhetoric or negative portrayals to one of those real world group seems very anti-inclusive to me. Lacking any positive examples in the art and story certainly doesn't help someone feel included. The game can't have art for every combination of those characteristics, but it can hit a lot of the bases.

Having the examples of your ancestral culture portrayed egregiously or consistently negatively, or in a stereotypical way which links to discrimination your group has faced, also feels very anti-inclusive to me. Not having your ethnic group represented in terms of game options isn't great, but they can't possibly represent all the ethnic groups that have existed. I would hope they aspire to.
 
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Serious question: Is not presenting furries and orcs as standard PC races uninclusive?
This question could be rephrased as "is not including animal-folk races keeping people out of the game?" or, slightly differently "Is not including these races making players feel unwelcome?"

For the first version: I think this is yes in an absolute sense of at least one person decided not to play the game because they thought couldn't be a fox-person. But there's a higher threshold than that. I think more race options helps more players enjoy the game the way they want to, and if you can do so in a balanced way that's broadly a good thing. It also helps bring in new players if they have an easier time finding something that they think will be fun to play. Plus, in at least one other highly popular fantasy game, orcs were a core pc race so having orcs but not letting you play them seems odd. Especially when half-orc and dragonborn both make the cut.

But the drive to include as many character options must be weighed against the drive to have games feel coherent, and thematic coherence means not all conceptually possible character options will fit. I've never been in a game where a mind flayer pc would be acceptable, not because mind flayer pc's can't be balanced but because the setting has never allowed for it. Some of this is just good table ettiquette and a solid session zero, but the books can be written to promote these things, and they can be written in ways the work against it.

But the context of this balance, at least ofr this thread, is Dungeons & Dragons as a game overall, not your personal campaign. We should exclude a race when it won't work in any DnD, not when it won't work in my game. So there should probably be a way to play as a mind flayer pc if it works in the specific campaign you're joining (and it's not hard to imagine such a game).

On the fourth hand, there's only so many pages in the book, so at some point we have to distinguish between "central and important to present", "allowed" and "not cool, bro."

For the second version, (are people being made to feel unwelcome) with respect to orcs: I'm not seeing the complaint phrased that way, as in it's not the status of them being pc's or not that's the real issue. Some people feel that the descriptions of orc (fluff and crunch) tracks a little too close to how real-world racists talk about certain peoples. This is a bad thing, and something we should question and adjust to account for. Thinking of orcs as playable is a good way to reconsider it, even if in the end they aren't included as a core playable race. Which is why stuff like racial intelligence mods and getting rid of mandatory alignment for non-outsiders tend to go over without much knee-jerking. Strength mods are a little tougher because the mechanical range is so small compared to the breadth we'd expect in the real world, let alone when magic is involved.

With respect to furries: I would say probably not in the sense of the game making them feel unwelcome so much as the community making them feel unwelcome. It's not even that you can't play a fox-person, really (lots of good refluffing and homebrew options exist), it's much more likely that the hostile reaction you'll get from other players is what's making you walk away.

Which leads to another path of questioning that I'm not ready to dive into just yet.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You have a terrible habit of stating something contrarian with no elaboration. Please be more polite and elaborate on why instead of just saying “an your wrong”.
You made an extreme claim about other people’s position, without anything to back said claim up.

I find your reply to being called out on that hilariously hypocritical.
You have to remember, he doesn't believe that he has to back up his claims. That's your job..........in a library.
As someone who is quick to accuse people of personal attacks, maybe don’t make it personal.
 


GreenTengu

Adventurer
Serious question: Is not presenting furries and orcs as standard PC races uninclusive?

Well-- perhaps not if no "not technically human" humans were available for play, but if others are available-- then I think it is pretty obviously so.

Also-- I don't know why virtually all of the fairy creatures from Asia (and Africa and the Americas, come to think of it) pretty much boil down to "human with animal head and maybe fur", but it seems rather reductive to compare kitsune-spirits, naga, rakshasha, vanara, garudo, etc. with people who dress up in cartoon anthromorphic animal costumes for adult activities. (granted it is true that a lot of the kitsune-spirit stories do involve them posing as humans in order to get married to or have babies with a human, but finding out your spouse was actually a fox was always a tragedy, not titillating)

It is rather reductive and culturally condescending. I don't really see how the European fairies of "humans, but extra small and maybe with this or that exaggerated facial feature" is in any way naturally superior to "humans, but also totally this other animal at the same time."

The fact that you are being so reductive and culturally condescending pretty much highlights just how deeply uninclusive it really is.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Well-- perhaps not if no "not technically human" humans were available for play, but if others are available-- then I think it is pretty obviously so.

Also-- I don't know why virtually all of the fairy creatures from Asia (and Africa and the Americas, come to think of it) pretty much boil down to "human with animal head and maybe fur", but it seems rather reductive to compare kitsune-spirits, naga, rakshasha, vanara, garudo, etc. with people who dress up in cartoon anthromorphic animal costumes for adult activities. (granted it is true that a lot of the kitsune-spirit stories do involve them posing as humans in order to get married to or have babies with a human, but finding out your spouse was actually a fox was always a tragedy, not titillating)

It is rather reductive and culturally condescending. I don't really see how the European fairies of "humans, but extra small and maybe with this or that exaggerated facial feature" is in any way naturally superior to "humans, but also totally this other animal at the same time."

The fact that you are being so reductive and culturally condescending pretty much highlights just how deeply uninclusive it really is.

As I think more on this, I'm leaning more and more on race/species having no mechanical benefit and instead having a robust system where you can buy "traits" that you can favor however you want.

Why does your PC have darkvision? Maybe he's an elf with keen senses, or a human who was blessed by the God of Night, or a dwarf who made a pact with a devil, or a halfling with draconic blood in his family, or a tabaxi with magical cat eyes, or a mage who learned a ritual to permanently cast it, or a gnome who built night vision goggles. Etc.

Build what you want based on the traits you purchased. So the same with ability scores, skills and classes. Just keep the point total the same for all starting players and they're are no limits.
 

As I think more on this, I'm leaning more and more on race/species having no mechanical benefit and instead having a robust system where you can buy "traits" that you can favor however you want.

Why does your PC have darkvision? Maybe he's an elf with keen senses, or a human who was blessed by the God of Night, or a dwarf who made a pact with a devil, or a halfling with draconic blood in his family, or a tabaxi with magical cat eyes, or a mage who learned a ritual to permanently cast it, or a gnome who built night vision goggles. Etc.

Build what you want based on the traits you purchased. So the same with ability scores, skills and classes. Just keep the point total the same for all starting players and they're are no limits.

I think that's a good idea. I would probably describe it as optional, though. In the same way 5e feats and multiclassing is optional.
 

This question could be rephrased as "is not including animal-folk races keeping people out of the game?" or, slightly differently "Is not including these races making players feel unwelcome?"

Thanks for letting me know where you're coming from.

I want you to play the type of game that you want at your table, but I also want me to be able play the game I want at my table. I want to find a solution so we can both play the type of game we desire, even if it's not at the same table.
 


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