New errata for core books, dated 7/2/2008

[Plane Sailing]

Let me make sure I understand how the new resistance thing works, since it's confusing me:

Assume 10 Fire and 10 Thunder damage.


Is this right? If so, it seems like it really screws you over with the errata. If you get hit with something that has multiple types, you might as well not have any resistance at all unless you have one of each.

You're not phrasing the question right. Take a look again at my post earlier.

If something does 10 fire and 10 thunder damage, then the fire and the thunder damage are applied separately as you would expect. There wouldn't be any change there (see Prismatic Beams, for instance).

However, if something does 20 Fire and Thunder damage, then you only count the lowest of your resistances. You've got to resist both things in order to shrug some of it off.

This is why higher level powers can have multiple keywords (see Black Fire, for example).

Most things do a single type of damage. Powers which do multiple types of damage mean that it is more likely you get damage through resistance without having to ramp up the damage itself - it is an excellent design philosophy.

Regards,

 

[FireLance]

Skill Challenge balance for multiple PCs comes from the DM, not the DC table.

That's like saying that combat balance for multiple PCs comes from the DM, not the Monster Manual.

It isn't a false statement, but it misses that fact that a good set of rules or guidelines can be of great help to a DM.

 

[Bronz]

Another question on the new resistance. Does the old rules of keyword inheritance still apply?
For example, is a fighter wielding a lightning sword (with the at-will off) adding lightning to the attack, and therefore his attack is now Untyped and Lightning damage? Does a creature need both resistances to resist any at all now? Has the drawback of having an energy implement/weapon now been replaced by an advantage?

Sorry for the run on, but it really does all go together.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Another question on the new resistance. Does the old rules of keyword inheritance still apply?
For example, is a fighter wielding a lightning sword (with the at-will off) adding lightning to the attack, and therefore his attack is now Untyped and Lightning damage? Does a creature need both resistances to resist any at all now? Has the drawback of having an energy implement/weapon now been replaced by an advantage?

Sorry for the run on, but it really does all go together.

If the at-will is off then the weapons key word does not get added to the attack. Now if you attack with the lightning on I think lightning resist will apply as normal. For implements you only get the key word added to your powers when you use the power in the implement with one of your powers. You would not get the key words just for wielding the implement.

 

[Bronz]

Hmm. That's not what I've understood from previous threads here on EnWorld. What I understand is that if a weapon/implement contains a keyword, that keyword is inherited by a power that uses said weapon/implement. For example, a flame weapon that is turned off still contains the fire keyword, and therefore will do fire damage (now fire and untyped, used to be half and half). Same example with a force power wand. Any power used as with that as an implement would inherit the force keyword and therefore do force damage (for instance, a fire and force fireball).

This of course is my concern with the current errata. It was understandable and beneficial before, but now it seems like no resistance will be just as good as one type of resistance, almost no matter what. As long as a PC wields an energy implement/weapon they will be doing two types of damage, which is only benefical now.

 

[JDillard]

Hmm. That's not what I've understood from previous threads here on EnWorld. What I understand is that if a weapon/implement contains a keyword, that keyword is inherited by a power that uses said weapon/implement. For example, a flame weapon that is turned off still contains the fire keyword, and therefore will do fire damage (now fire and untyped, used to be half and half). Same example with a force power wand. Any power used as with that as an implement would inherit the force keyword and therefore do force damage (for instance, a fire and force fireball).

Check the newest version of the FAQ. It was clarified that weapon keywords only apply when weapon powers are used. Alas, I can't access the wizards site from work here so I can't give you a link but there was quite a long thread here on ENWorld about it.

 

[the8bitdeity]

The way I interpret someone using a lightening or fire sword as follows:

1) At-Will is "off". There are two separate sources of damage: The untyped damaged from the "sword" portion and the typed damage from the fire. Fluff wise I take this to mean that the sword does damage as a sword normally would, then the fire aspect deals additional damage. In this case all of the untyped damage would be unaffected by Resist Fire, whereas the Fire Typed Damage would. They're 2 independent sources.

Assuming a Critical Hit with a Flaming Longsword on a Basic Melee Attack

1d8 + (STR MOD) + ENH BONUS Untyped Damage
AND
1d6 Fire Damage

against a Monster with Resist: Fire 10

fire damage is effectively neutralized, but you still get the full untyped damage.

2) At-Will is on. The sword turns into a weapon of pure flame, not simply a metal sword with a flaming aura. All damage is typed fire.

1d8 + 1d6 + (STR MOD) + (ENH BONUS) Fire Damage

Resist Fire 10 considerably helps in this circumstance.

If the FIRE inherits in both situations I see no benefit for having the At-Will to turn the sword on and off.

 

[Paul Strack]

I think folks are being a bit unfair to WotC with regards to their level of playtesting. WotC is way ahead of most of the RPG industry here. There are plenty of games that are almost unplayable as published. There are plenty of companies that pay only lip service to balance, ignore player feedback and don't issue errata.

To my mind, there are only two areas where 4E is really screwy: Skill Challenges and Stealth. I am not surprised that there are problems with individual powers or monsters: if you take a game tested by hundreds and put it in front of tens of thousands, its not surprising that new loopholes will be uncovered.

 

[Revinor]

To my mind, there are only two areas where 4E is really screwy: Skill Challenges and Stealth. I am not surprised that there are problems with individual powers or monsters: if you take a game tested by hundreds and put it in front of tens of thousands, its not surprising that new loopholes will be uncovered.

As far as Skill Challenges are concerned, issue is a lot bigger. If they would correct numbers slightly, we could believe they it is just a small mistake. Changing them by 10 means that previous numbers were just taken out of collective WotC bottoms, without any statistical analysis nor playtesting. I also don't think that new numbers got any serious thoughts.

People are now finding that warlock is dealing around half of damage of ranger/rogue. You could try arguing that it is done by design - that warlock is 1/3 controller, has possibilities to avoid attacks, etc which 'costs' him lower dps output. But looking at skill challenge number, I'm now thinking that they just put made up numbers on the spot and not really cared about any more serious analysis.

Powers like Blade Cascade are not to be discovered in playtesting. Nobody will abuse BC by accident, so random playtesting won't work. You need somebody to analyse the power - and in this case, playtesting is not really required anymore, till you come with less broken version. And for such powers, person creating it in first place should understand the issue - after all, it was one of the tenets of 4th edition to avoid too many actions from one person, so such powers should have been put to a lot closer scrutiny.

I still like 4th edition and I'm going to play it and DM it. I just don't believe anymore in Fairies from the Coast fully understanding the system they have created - which can mean very bad news for future dragon articles/splat books (as amount of holes in the system will probably grow very fast).