New Feat: "Kneecap"

[Jeff Wilder]

I'd like some comments on the below. The feat is designed to represent shooting an opponent through the leg, dropping him temporarily. Because it's abstract, though, it could also represent just being bowled over by, e.g., a giant's thrown rock or the like.

My initial fear is that it's just a hair too powerful, but OTOH it's less powerful than the Knock-Down feat, and it's got it's own built-in drawback, namely that prone targets become harder to hit with missile weapons. Also, the Sharp-Shooting feat it has as a pre-req is a little under-powered, so this adds some usefulness to it.

KNEECAP [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sharp-shooting, base attack bonus +3.

Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent with a single ranged attack, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target, using all normal modifiers. If the trip attack fails, the target may not, of course, react to trip you.

Normal: Trip attacks cannot normally be made at range without special weapons.

Special: A successful trip using this feat does not grant a follow-up attack with Improved Trip, or any similar benefits from other feats or abilities. A fighter may select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Kneecap

I would prefer to see the feat something that the player chooses to use, so instead of the 'deal more than 10 points' something more like:

As a standard action, roll one ranged attack. You gain a bonus to damage of +2 for each iterative attack you would have had. If the attack deals damage, the target must roll for a save vs DC 15 + damage taken or fall prone. The target may choose to use either Fort or Will for this save.

This version maintains the combat flow and simulates to oft seen cinematic pause to aim and trims the power level down a notch. The addition of bonus to damage is to allow the feat to scale in usefulness as the character levels up. I am not familiar with 'SharpShooter', but otherwise the prereq's look fine.

This version also cuts any accidental synergy with another trip ability

 

[Jeff Wilder]

This version also cuts any accidental synergy with another trip ability

True. Unfortunately, it introduces YAM -- yet another mechanic -- rather than simply being based on the already extant mechanic used for the similar Knock-Down feat.

BTW, it is something the player "chooses to use." The feat says the attacker "may" try a trip roll against the target. It's entirely up to the shooter.

 

[reanjr]

I'd like some comments on the below. The feat is designed to represent shooting an opponent through the leg, dropping him temporarily. Because it's abstract, though, it could also represent just being bowled over by, e.g., a giant's thrown rock or the like.

My initial fear is that it's just a hair too powerful, but OTOH it's less powerful than the Knock-Down feat, and it's got it's own built-in drawback, namely that prone targets become harder to hit with missile weapons. Also, the Sharp-Shooting feat it has as a pre-req is a little under-powered, so this adds some usefulness to it.

KNEECAP [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sharp-shooting, base attack bonus +3.

Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent with a single ranged attack, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target, using all normal modifiers. If the trip attack fails, the target may not, of course, react to trip you.

Normal: Trip attacks cannot normally be made at range without special weapons.

Special: A successful trip using this feat does not grant a follow-up attack with Improved Trip, or any similar benefits from other feats or abilities. A fighter may select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Since this is being done with a ranged weapon, I'd lower the size modifier on the trip attack.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Since this is being done with a ranged weapon, I'd lower the size modifier on the trip attack.

Because it being a ranged attack makes it more powerful, or because it being a ranged attack means it's being done with an arrow (or whatever)?

 

[reanjr]

Because it being a ranged attack makes it more powerful, or because it being a ranged attack means it's being done with an arrow (or whatever)?

I was thinking because it's an arrow. While there is alot of force behind the attack, the force isn't applied intelligently throughout the trip maneuver (as in, if you were using you leg to trip someone you would change directions at some point to effectively do so).

I'd probably take the weapon size (of the bow or whatever) and lower it by one. Using the ammunition size I think would certainly be too low as the force is many times that of a melee weapon of similar size. Although, I suppose you make a good point, and you may want keep the size of the wielded weapon.

Also, range penalties should apply to the strength check and the strength should be assumed to be 10 unless they are using a mighty bow (or something).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I was thinking because it's an arrow.

Yeah, I can understand that POV, but it's not one that is usually -- and certainly not often -- modelled within the D&D rules.

Consider (again) the Knock-Down feat, upon which Kneecap is based. Knock-Down doesn't care if you do the damage with a maul, a longsword, or a hat-pin. 10 points of damage is 10 points of damage.

I consider D&D's level of abstraction to be a plus (usually), so I (usually) prefer to stay true to it.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

PC Chosen

The way I visualize this feat in action is that the character takes a bit of extra time and aims at knocking the target prone. I visualize the Knockdown feat as being trained in intensive, off balancing blows.

Okay, I types for about 5 minutes and talked myself into using the trip mechanic... but I would change a few minor things, first only have the target roll and use 15+ damage done as the attackers roll. Second, apply size modifier's based on the projectile or launcher size -1. I would still require use of the feat to be a Standard Action for one shot, gaining +2 damage for each iteritive attack you normally have.

Knockdown does not apply a size modifier based on the weapon, not does a normal trip attempt with a larger weapon. In the case of Kneecap, the projectile itself is the tripping agent, not the character behind it.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Change suggested for balance or for realism?

I would change a few minor things, first only have the target roll and use 15+ damage done as the attackers roll.

I had a chance to test Kneecap tonight, and based on that test, I think 15 is actually too high. Although the archer in question wasn't optimized for damage, he was still decent, with a magical mighty bow, and he only reached the 10 threshhold 50 percent of the time. (Whereas a melee character using Knock-down hits 10 damage pretty much with every attack.)

Second, apply size modifier's based on the projectile or launcher size -1.

Again, why? Because it's more realistic, or because it needs to be limited thusly for game balance? I'm honestly not that worried about the former -- given that Knock-Down can be performed with a hat-pin -- and I'm definitely not convinced of the latter. And it's a more complex mechanic.

I would still require use of the feat to be a Standard Action for one shot, gaining +2 damage for each iteritive attack you normally have.

I agree that doing it this way would be more realistic. I'm just not sure the feat needs it to be balanced. Do you feel it does?

Knockdown does not apply a size modifier based on the weapon, not does a normal trip attempt with a larger weapon. In the case of Kneecap, the projectile itself is the tripping agent, not the character behind it.

Yes, but the projectile itself is (presumably) coming from a projectile weapon of the proper size for the firer. An arrow hits hard enough to do 1d8 damage. A longsword hits for the same damage. If a longsword can knock someone down, the arrow should be able to ... again, by D&D game logic, with realism as a distant second.

What I'm trying to get with this is a neat, balanced feat for archers, who, in the absence of serious min-maxing, are the red-headed stepchildren of warriors. I'd like for it to be mechanically as similar to its melee-oriented cousin as possible. I'm not at all worried about realism ... IMO, D&D combat is about describing results, rather than about close-as-possible modelling of real-world mayhem, and I have no problem imaging how the results of this feat can occur.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Balance

Part of why I would look at trimming the concept {caveat.. I have not had a chance to playtest it} is that as a PC I play an archer focused character. Put me in 30' range of the target at the beggining of combat and I will get over the threshold almost everytime. {1D8 longbow +2 mighty +1D6 flame arrow +1D6 Sneak = average 12 points damage}.. not counting potential to crit {deepwood sniper}. Add 2 melee oriented Rogues who can rush out and flank the character and 1 spell caster to keep any bystanders at bay.. what can the target do but die?

And thats with a Jack of all trades but mostly good at Archery character, who actually has all the prereqs. So I am looking at this preeminently as a player who would be able to take this feat and wanting to sell it to my DM.

Another reason why I am not sure about using the Trip mechanic is that you require a high STR to be able to regularly succeed. So if you trip the threshold 50% of the time, and only succeed the trip around 25% of the time... or am I arguing myself into this


Flip the coin.. give this feat to a Giant with a boulder. Tripping the threshold would be often, if not every shot. Success at the trip would be often, if not every hit. This feat would be a must have for any Giant builds. The DM in me says 'Hello! Bowling for PCs!'

I definatly need to run some scenarios on this, or hear from playtest games...