New gamer has problems with combat system

gamer_guy said:
I kept reading it over but I still don't understand AoO's. It's not the rules i don't understand (I think), it's just the idea. Why does a defender get an AoO when an attacker moves out of an area threatening them(I think they are moving away out of reach so why is he threatening)? Why doesn't the defender get an AoA when an attacker enters an area and makes it threatened(personally i'd be threatened if a barbarian ran up to me and stopped about 5 feet infront of me)? Why don't you get an AoA when someone makes a melee attack after a reflex save(if you move out of the way from the hit that leaves the attacker unguarded?) Why do people get AoA's against others using ranged weapons?

The rules say the only way to get an AoA is to move in a threatened area (unless you double move--which i don't understand that concept) and when you move out of a threatened area. Is this right?

Here's the quick and simple explaination of the AoO rules.

You get an attack of opportunity in two cases.
1 - When you move out of a threatened area. Basically, you are pulling away and focusing your attention elsewhere, so the guy with the sword in your face gets in a swing.

2- You do something that distract you from the guy waving a sword in your face. Something like casting a spell, drinking a potion, or using a missile weapon. You drop your guard to do this other action, so the guy takes a swing.

Now, there are two exceptions.

1 - No AoO if you only move five feet. This is considered a combat adjustment, so you don't open yourself to your enemy.

2 - If all you do is move, the square you start in is treated like it isn't threatened. The best way to make sense of this (and IMHO how it should have been set up in the rules) is to think of it as a withdrawl action. You back away carefully and do not open yourself to the enemy.

If you get these two rules and two exceptions down, then you have AoOs down, and that is the most compicated part of combat.

hth - madd
 

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Sorry to keep asking questions (but keep in mind that a bunch of friends and me are just starting out) but i have one more question.

How does the DM keep a battle running smooth? Every round players and creatures are losing HP, spells and etc. are causing stats to drop or raise, and feats are giving modifiers to many rolls. How does the DM organize this? If s/he had copies of character sheets that would take to much erasing and the Dm might forget to change something (lets say if a spell increased dexterity for 2 rounds). And plus having 5 character sheets all spread out gets confusing. A battle would take forever for the Dm to stop every round to go through and change player's and creature's stats, etc. There has to be some way to do this. Or is this the only way to do it?
 

Spells don't generally make changes to ABILITY scores for short periods of time. They usually only change the results, like to-hit rolls and things like that.

What I do is to have a bunch of 3x5 cards with stat blocks for each of the monsters. The wide top line is kept blank (except for the name) to give room for things like temporary modifiers.

Also, using an "initiative deck" is a big help.

Write all the PC's names on cards. Make more cards for encounters. When you roll up the initiative, put the cards in initiative order, best roll first. Put a "turn counter" card on the top... that's where you keep track of things like spell expiration.

I really ought to write this idea up somewhere that it can be readily accessed, it's just too valuable to keep reposting.
 

gamer_guy said:

How does the DM keep a battle running smooth?

By letting the players handle much of the work you mention. :)

A DM can, if he qwishes, keep track of all the math for every character himself. But there's generally no need. Each player can handle this for their own character.

That still leaves the DM handling the NPCs and monsters. But they don't need full sheets. They can be dealt with in "stat blocks" - only the neccessary information. Generally the stat blocks for one combat can be fit on one sheet of paper.

From there, much of it is simply practice, and finding the bookkeeping methods that work for you. You will probably have to experiment quite a bit to find someting you like.
 

Mostly, the DM tracks the bad guys, and the players keep track of their own stats. It can get fairly complex, at times, just runing a single PC.

Let's see, I rolled a 6, got a 4(+2) for my Bull's Strength roll this morning, (also I had Cat's Grace, for weapon finese, but that was just dispelled) using my Defending Flaming Longsword shifted to +0 on offense with a Greater Magic Weapon, making it +3, and I'm power attacking for 4 points and using expertiese for 5 points... I'm charging, and have high ground, and this will set up a falnking oppertunity and both the rogue and I have dual strike... but they have 1/2 cover... so I hit... uhm... AC....... *longish pause* 18. And my AC for this round is...... *longish pause*

NPCs typicaly don't have stats that change too much in a fight, though a handy system for cimplicated ones is to have index cards for each with full stats, and put them in initative order. Things don't get too complicated until dispel magics start flying around right and left and you need to track various magic working or not working
 

nice to see so many helping out a newbie. i "fondly" remember the old days 1980 i think when no one but my sister would explain anything to me about the game.

ah.. the "good" old days...


joe b.
 

The players themselves might want to keep a single sheet of paper with their relevant numbers - with enough room for change.

I do that with my high-level Bladesinger. Bladesingers are basically Fighters with buff spells, so I have many feats (who can change my statistics) and many spells(who can change my statistics. With just the character sheet I'd have to do complex mathematics with every single attack roll (and I have six attacks per round at times).

Let me explain it a little further:

At the top I have my AC.
First, it's divided into Base (flat 10, a halfling or other small character would have 11 here. Stuff like deflection bonuses, like a ring of protection, also add to this. You don't lose this part of your AC except under exceptional circumstances), Armor (everything that comes from Armor or Natural armor. You'll lose that part of your armor class if someone makes a touch attack), and Agility (the Dexterity Bonus, dodge bonuses you always have. You'll lose that part of your armor class if you're caught flat footed or lose your DEX bonus any other way, such as against an invisible character.). Write the numbers down, below each position, and add them up behind - this is your "Base AC". Beside that, I enlist all things that could add to my AC: If I use cat's grace, my AC will go up, I may use the shield spell, or haste, and I have expertise and can excange attack bonuses for Armor class. I write the Numbers they can give below. In the line beneath that, I then write the stuff I actually have. I add these to the Base-AC and write that at the end of the line, As my AC.

Example:
Code:
Base Armor Agility Base-AC | Dodge Shield Haste Expertise |AC
 13    8     7       28    |   1     7      4      (5)
                     28    |   1     7      0       3     | 39

Then do something similar with your attacks and damage: Write your attacks (if you have more than one) in one line with the normal attack bonus (i.e. Your base attack + Strength + The Weapons's enhancement bonus + 1 For Weapon Focus. The attack bonus you have without any spells, feats that are not always active, or special modifiers.) At the beginning of your turn, you write the actual numbers below that (if changes have occured. This could be spells, and if you have the Power Attack feat, you might want to subtract some of your Attack Bonus and add it to your damage). Also write down the attack bonus you'd have with a single attack (if you must first move to hit your enemy, you won't be able to perform a full attack. Some feats or abilities, like Rapid Shot, give you more attacks in a round, but all the attacks suffer a penalty. You'll probably use those feats most of the time, but if you move, you can attack only once, and this means you won't get that penalty)

Example:
Code:
Attacks:
Single Attack | Several Attacks
+29           |+27/+27/+22/+17/+12
+22           |+20/+20/+15/+10/+05

For damage, write down the base damage you do, and below that the damage you actually do at the moment (There are Spells, feats, and abilities that add to this.)

Example:
Code:
Damage:
1d8 + 14
1d8 + 21

In all these examples, you have the normal values in the uper line, and the actual numbers below. The upper line won't change except your level-up or your ability scores change permanently (i.e. You get a Belt of Giant Strength +4, and your improved Strength Score improves your attacks and damage)

Below that, make a list of all special abilities or buff / protection spells you usually get (I, for example, have learned Haste twice per day and use it for every major encounter. Same goes for the Shield spell.) or you always have (like spider climbing you get from Boots. You mainly write them down to remember you have them.) Beside that, you might want to write down the effect in short (e.g: "Shield: +7 cover to AC" or "Mirror Image: 1d4 + 1 /3 Levels"), and beside that, the duration of the abilities (some are permanent, but most are limited: Haste only lasts one round / level, and boots of speed can be used for 10 rounds per day). At the beginning of the line, you check those abilites that are active at the moment, and at the end, you mark durations (this is mainly for stuff that can be measured in rounds, like 1 Round/level or 1 Minute spells If it's measured in Hours, it will probably outlast the combat, and you need the DM to tell you how much time has past). Permanent abilities get a special sign to show that they're active constantly:

Example:
Code:
P Spider Climbing
P Combat Reflexes (Extra AoO)
X Cat's Grace (1d4+1 Cha): 1 hour/level. +3 Cha
  Blur (20% Miss Chance): 1 min/level.
X Mirror Image (1d4+ 1/3 Levels): 1 min/level. 5 Images. x x ||||
  Shield (+7 cover AC, 1/2 battlefield): 1 min/level.
X Haste (+4 AC, extra part. Action): 1 round/level. x ||

Below that, you note your Hit Points and Subdual Damage. If you do this on the character sheet, writing down, erasing, writing new, you'll have worked right through it after 10 game sessions.
 

Gamer Guy,

Welcome to our delicious hobby. If you manage to take the treshold of a gamesystem with fairly complex rules you'll be garantueed to be hooked vor a VERY long time.

I understand the rules can be very complex and sometimes even intimidating or frustrating for a starting player, and I must say I admire your guts to start as a DM right away. For comparison: I play the game for over 2 years now and I've started to consider running my own campaign only a short time ago.

Feel free to ask anything here; we'll try our best to help you. Keep those questions rolling! There's just one advice I can give you now but I think it's an important one:

State where you are from and ask an expirienced player/DM to hang out with your group for a evening. The best way to learn the game in my humble expirience is being in the company of someone who actually knows what he/she is doing.

If you are from the Netherlands: give a yell, I'll be more then happy to join your group. No matter where you live, I bet there's someone living fairly close by who will be happy to drop by. If you are new to internet and forums: don't post your adress here (for privacy reasons) but just state from wich region you are and leave a e-mail where people can reach you. I'm positive that someone will reply. I think we all love meeting new players.
 

Astragoth said:
I understand the rules can be very complex and sometimes even intimidating or frustrating for a starting player, and I must say I admire your guts to start as a DM right away. For comparison: I play the game for over 2 years now and I've started to consider running my own campaign only a short time ago.

About the same with me (it's only 1 year of 3e, but I played AD&D a while before that). I'm probably going to start a campaign soon (I'll go get City of the Spider Queen at a fair this sunday).
But my current 3e DM has started as DM, as well (he has had almost no experience with RPG before, he played a little DSA, if any at all) and he does pretty well.
 

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