new generator lists

[Wicht]

I mentioned this in the fishing thread but will start a new thread to get a bit more discussion.

The lists of styles/locations/defensive nouns on the generator could use a little work. IMO, I think that the defenses should be better paired with the attacks. I would suggest breaking the styles and locations down into families. Each style/location would have one other style/location that paired with it and the pair would recieve a single specific defensive noun. For instance in the following lists, snake and lizard are a pair and the defense is reptile. There are 50 styles listed and 25 matching defenses. I would then proceed to have 25 defenses matched with 50 locations, for example Castle and Tower would be matched with fortification. What do others think? And what changes would you make to the lists. I removed about 4 old styles I think and added in a few new ones in their place to make the pairings work out better.

Styles:
Animals: (14) snake, lizard, crane, falcon, fox, wolf, tiger, jaguar, rabbit, rat, spider, scorpion, crab, turtle
Plants: (6) Cherry Blossum, rose-petal, Willow, Oak, vine, lily
Weapons: (14) dagger, sword, needle, spear, hammer, mace, staff, chopstick, kama, scythe, cane, fan, claw, fang
Beasts: (10) wyvern, dragon, unicorn, ki-rin, chimera, manticore, phoenix, angel, demon, ?wraith?
Weather: (6) rain, thunder, westwind, eastwind, Blizzard, Northstar

Defenses
Reptile, bird, canine, cat, rodent, vermin, armor; flower, tree, garden; blade, arrow, iron, wood, sickle, ?nobility?, tooth and nail; wyrm, horse, abomination, light, darkness; storm, breeze, snow;

 

[reiella]

current tables

/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Chart 02 -- Styles */
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
var xmtab02 = new Array(
"blizzard", "cherry blossom", "chopstick", "chimera", "claw",
"crab", "crane", "dagger", "dragon", "falcon",
"fan", "fang", "fist", "fox", "frog",
"hammer", "jaguar", "kama", "ki-rin", "lizard",
"lotus blossom", "manta ray", "manticore", "mantis", "mongoose",
"monkey", "needle", "northstar", "owl", "panther",
"phoenix", "rabbit", "rat", "raven", "rose petal",
"scorpion", "snake", "spear", "spider", "staff",
"sword", "thorn", "thunder", "tiger", "toad",
"tree", "turtle", "vine", "west wind", "wolf");


/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Chart 07 -- Turf Names */
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
var xmtab07 = new Array(
"badlands", "canyon", "castle", "caves", "cemetery",
"city", "coast", "delta", "desert", "dungeon",
"foothills", "forest", "fountain", "garden", "gate",
"glade", "grotto", "heavens", "hells", "island",
"knoll", "lake", "madlands", "marsh", "mesa",
"mountain", "palace", "pillars", "plain", "pond",
"prairie", "ravine", "ricefield", "river", "ruins",
"savanna", "spring", "steppes", "swamp", "temple",
"tower", "tundra", "vale", "valley", "village",
"vineyard", "volcano", "wastelands", "well", "wetlands");

/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Chart 09 -- Nouns */
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
var xmtab09 = new Array(
"battlements", "body", "chi", "clouds", "dark sunbeam",
"eyes", "fell dagger", "flame", "fortress", "heart",
"invisible blade", "ki", "moon", "rain", "rainbow",
"snow", "soul", "spirit", "stone", "stars",
"steel", "sun", "plant", "comet", "ember",
"foul", "four winds", "lightning", "root", "void",
"willow", "wyrm", "air", "armor", "arrow",
"bamboo", "earth", "fire", "honor", "lava",
"leaf", "lightbeam", "mist", "scythe", "shadow",
"shield", "mind", "steam", "teardrop", "water",
"weapon", "amphibian", "ape", "bird", "canine",
"cat", "reptile", "rodent", "vermin", "lily",
"orchid", "rosewood", "sunflower", "willow");


[ Pasted from other thread ]

 

[Rathan]

well doen wicht.....and I'd have the wraith in there IMO..... nice eastwind move buddie....

 

[graydoom]

Wicht, I like the new styles. Just a couple comments.

First, IMO lotus blossom should stay, superceding either lily, oak, or willow.

Second, for the beasts table, I really don't think angel, demon, or wraith is appropriate. Those are all somewhat intelligent humanoid beings. I think better beast styles would be griffon, hippogriff, naga, pegasus, or roc. IMO, any of those are better than angel, demon, and wraith.

 

[reiella]

[ Also went and counted, 10 changed total so far ]

Well for that at least. I personally don't like the angel,demon references. They just seem a bit out of place. Wraith the same...

Crab Turtle can easily be paired with a defense against shell I suppose maybe (sounds better than armor and more directly related imo .

Thunder + Blizzard could be paired to storm, although not sure how rain would work. Possibly replace with Southstar, and pair those two against stars?

Would perfer to keep Lotus blossom as well.
Snake+Lizard, reptile is trouble some... Many can probably view a dragon to be reptile as well, and a snake ... well not a reptile .

Crane+Falcon, bird, good

Fox+Wolf are both canine, although it is less weighted against fox from my glance at least .

Tiger+Jaguar, cat, good

Rabbit and Rat, rodent? reluctant there...
Spider, scorpion, vermin again reluctant, especially as rat can be seen as vermin too, maybe insect? (does kill the mantis style however)

The weapon based defenses are just awkward in general I feel, unless we plan to have a 'judging guide' listing the relations. Scythe, sword, dagger, kama all can be seen as blades... Cane and Staff are also highly similiar too (and both would really go against wood).

Wyvern + Dragon, wyrm, fairly straight forward

Unicorn and ki-rin horse, a bit awkward, maybe steed, or celestial steed? (Not a good suggestins I know :x).

Chimera and Manticore are abominations and do fit to a large extent. Trouble with those two however is that they're also both part cat (and manticore at least is also part scorpion, and often how I used to relate them).


Phoenix + other three, well would perfer if this three didn't show up in the final, but . [ clarification, I like phoenix, just those last 3 in beasts table ]

 

[Wicht]

well the list is just a suggestion. And I can see replacing rose-petal with lotus blossum and replacing lily with rose.

There is going to have to be some overlapping I am afraid. The main thing is to make sure that every move is covered which at the moment I do not think they are.

And a snake is a reptile (though so is a turtle), look up reptile And a rabbit is a rodent as well I believe.

The angel/demon I was not sure about nor the wraith - but I was running out of pairs, and like I said it is just a suggestion to get conversation going.

Shell I like better than armor too.

I must have skipped mantis - I prefer mantis to scorpion personally.

What pairs with a pheonix?

 

[Vanor]

Question...

What is the reason for this change? It sounds to me like...

If I throw out a Dragon style move, and someone has wyrm in the defense, their move is given a little extra weight because their defense matches my attacking style?

Is that the intent of this change? If so, isn't this going to give even more reasons to fish for a move?

I mean if I see someone has a Good move... I could look for a almost as good move, with a defense that matches the style of the attack. Which could give me a better chance of winning the round.

And lastly, I strongly sugest not getting rid of any styles... Many people have adopted their styles into their character in some way... Removing a style can cause IC issues that could be and should be avoided IMO. (And the imporant styles for me are still there so it wouldn't effect me. )

 

[reiella]

To go with Phoenix, I'd suggest Gray's Roc at least so far.

They're both legendary birds.

Also Vanor, I believe the intent is just to restructure the lists so it's a bit more even than it currently is, so that there are 'defenses' for all styles/locations, instead of just styles and locations that are appropiate for only a few of the existing (Wyrm currently does exist as a defense, and it seems judges now do tend to consider the defense relative to the attack).

Although it may encourage fishing in standard matches... It would be more useful in strategy matches (where it is more likly for a judge to give interaction more weight). I do agree though with that it could cause more fishing... All the same, it would become obvious if they fished for that reason (a series of 'critical' rounds in a match where someone miracliously pulls related defenses ). One suggestion though, if we can. Do not make the interaction lists offical in any way shape or form. Leave it up to the judges. Yes it is slightly more uneven, but it doesn't give as much weight for fishing in standard matches.

[ Thought on recent time ]
Also if you pair Eastwind and Westwind, go with Four Winds for the related defense (I like that current name).

 

[Wicht]

The suggested reason for the changes are to make the defenses more relevant. What styles are missing that people would not want to see gone. I know I ditched toad and frog, but we could pull them back easily enough. Leaving Lotus blossum and Mantis out were oversights. The raven and the owl I do not believe are all that heavily used at the moment. Panther could replace jaguar easy enough if that is a favorite?

And personally, I think that a person who routinely defended perfectly in a traditional non-strategy match would soon be viewed suspiciously.

 

[reiella]

I could definantively live without Manta Ray... It's like the only purely aquatic thing in the list. And it does sound neat and all (manta rays are one of my favorite animals in truth), it just doesn't fit here.

That said though, I do think how antiquated styles/locations will be handled should be mentioned as well (the same as before with choosing a new one to replace them yourself?)...

I would like to see defenses be more useful in general, and if this helps, I'm for it. That said though, I do have concerns about people fishing with them... And if it's a superfluous change (even though it is one I want).

If you want, I can change MeowthBot's experimental generator (And my test gen once the main generator gets updated) to use the new styles and 'test' how they feel/field if we do decide to go with them though.