New HARP book for your old D20 stuff

[Umbran]

I do, however, understand the anger, frustration and confusion of not being paid for an art job that has taken time, money, research and materials.

I can understand it too, but you have to remember that the new ICE would be, in effect, a starting company. Even if there were no legal issues with cleaning up some of the old company's debts, they probably simply don't have the capital with which to do it. It'd be nice, but economic reality may simply not make it possible. There'd be darned little point in making nice with the artists if that'd cause the new company to fold and not able to pay it's debts, hm?

 

[BSF]

On the first point: I admit I may be wrong about that particular bankruptcies particulars, the exact settlement can vary. However, the car analogy is irrelevant as these are two different types of bankruptcy, with different stipulations. It would stand to reason, at least to me, that a new company would attempt to smooth things over with previous people owed money in hopes of gaining their talent and trust again. The new I.C.E. has chosen not to do so, not even an effort, and that is a bit scary to me. While it is their right, as a new company not to do so, I still think that some effort could have been made.

This is sticky legal trouble land. If you, as the purchasee, choose to try to pay off old debts, you leave yourself potentially liable for all old debts. The other creditors, many of whom might be higher in the priority list, could argue that instead of selling the assests of the company, it should have been treated like an acquisition/restructure. Even in an attempt to rebuild goodwill, you often cannot do so because you place your entire business plan at risk when the other creditors take you to court for their share, which should have been paid first.

I am actually surprised that Mjolnir LLC would choose to do business as ICE, and I am surprised that they would be allowed to. While the ICE brand had some value, the ill will that it engendered is a severe drawback.

I tried to keep up with what was happening to ICE. Eventually, I saw that they had new products out there. If I had known that, and knew that talent had been burned by not being paid, I would be very unlikely to support the company through purchasing a product.

As it happens, I now know that ICE really isn't the old ICE and that the assests of the old ICE were auctioned through bankruptcy courts. I would encourage Mjolnir LLC to clarify their position in regards to the old company.

But, back on topic - I am curious about HARP. I might look through some of my old Fast Forward Entertainment crap to see if I want to trade it in. Otherwise, I will probably just wait until the urge strikes me to buy it.

 

[Rasyr]

This is sticky legal trouble land.
snipped some very good points

You pointed out one of the things I was trying not to say directly - about the liabilities.

As for the using of the ICE name, the name and logo were part of the bankruptcy sale, and it was determined that the name and brand recognition was still viable, so it was used. That was long before I got hired.

But, back on topic - I am curious about HARP. I might look through some of my old Fast Forward Entertainment crap to see if I want to trade it in. Otherwise, I will probably just wait until the urge strikes me to buy it.

If you want to check out some bit about HARP before making a decision, then go to the HARP website, specifically the following link: http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm
and check out some of the downloads. There is a Character Creation overview, and the entirety of the Combat chapter, along with al the monsters in the core rulebook, plus a few other goodies. I think it will be worth your while to take a look at it....

 

[tonym]

Technically and legally 'new' ICE and 'old' ICE are different, sure. But a lot of the same people that were at the old ICE are back running the new one.

For example, the New ICE quickly made a license deal with a company which is owned by some ex-ICE employees: Bruce Neidlinger, Heike Kubasch, and Stephen Hardy.

And new ICE hired back old Art Director, too, I am told.

Seems to me that 'new' ICE and old ICE have a lot of the same staff in common...so, yeh, I can see why people might expect them to pay the unpaid artists from old ICE. Even though, as the ICE employee posting here in this thread has mentioned several times, they certainly don't have to, by law.

Tony M

 

[BSF]

Seems to me that 'new' ICE and old ICE have a lot of the same staff in common...so, yeh, I can see why people might expect them to pay the unpaid artists from old ICE. Even though, as the ICE employee posting here in this thread has mentioned several times, they certainly don't have to, by law.

Tony M

Tony, I have no affiliation with ICE, except as a potential customer. However, I have been involved with Bankruptcy acquisitions of business assets, including right to use name and telephone numbers. As I said above, it gets very problematic to try to re-establish good will with vendors (or contract work) by making good on bad debts from the bankrupt legal entity. Paying even one person that the bankrupt entity owed money to creates a legal "opportunity" for every creditor of the bankrupt entity to collect what is owed to them. And since there are often creditors with more privelige than the contract workers, the contract workers still will not receive pay.

You have to remember that there may be building lease, utilities, insurance, printers, etc that will all probably have a larger claim than an individual artist or writer. It isn't so much that the new ICE doesn't have to try to pay the artists, it is that doing so will probably shutdown the new ICE and force them into bankruptcy as well, and the artists still won't get paid. Even if an artist received a check, and managed to deposit it before any other legal action began, the other creditors might still have the option of forcing a repayment from the artist since the artist collected debt out of turn. Bankruptcy is a harsh process and there is hardly ever a real "winner".

 

[Rasyr]

Technically and legally 'new' ICE and 'old' ICE are different, sure. But a lot of the same people that were at the old ICE are back running the new one.

For example, the New ICE quickly made a license deal with a company which is owned by some ex-ICE employees: Bruce Neidlinger, Heike Kubasch, and Stephen Hardy.

And new ICE hired back old Art Director, too, I am told.

Seems to me that 'new' ICE and old ICE have a lot of the same staff in common...so, yeh, I can see why people might expect them to pay the unpaid artists from old ICE. Even though, as the ICE employee posting here in this thread has mentioned several times, they certainly don't have to, by law.

Just to put forward some correct information here.
The new owner of the ICE IP created Aurigas Aldebaron LLC as a holding company for the ICE properties. He then contacted Bruce Neidlinger from the former ICE to see if he would manage this property. (Note: several of the people who bid on the ICE properties contacted former ICE employees about creating a new company to manage the property).

Bruce is the CEO of Mjolnir LLC (dba Iron Crown Enterprises). Heike worked for the old ICE off and on for a number of years (she also worked on some AD&D books as well during those years, such as the Book of Lairs - can't remember which one). She is the President of the company, and also Bruce's wife.

Steve Hardy and Jason Hawkins were both employees of the old ICE, and being known to Bruce and Heike, were hired as employees for the new ICE. Both have since left and no longer work for the new ICE (Jason moved to another state, IIRC - don't know what happened with Steve). They have been gone for well over a year now.

Several others associated with the old ICE work with the new ICE occassionally, but are not full time employees that work out of the office. The only full time employees that the current ICE has are myself as system editor (and many other hats, including pack mule when things need to go to the post office), and my wife who handles customer service and shipping. Neither of us worked for the old ICE. hehe In fact, I used to be one of the harsher critics of the old ICE before the bankruptcy.

The new ICE's Art Director is Jeff Laubenstein (of Earthdawn fame IIRC).

Pete Fenlon and Coleman Charlton, two of the owners of the old ICE have never been associated with the new ICE.

And BardStephenFox is absolutely correct in regards to how the bakruptcy stuff works. Add to the normal types of creditors that the old ICE had, they also had Tolkien Enterprises which purposely went out of their way to shut down the old ICE for good. (Note: The company that owns TE is the same company that sued John Fogerty for plagiarizing his own song!).

All the new ICE can do is to attempt to explain these things to people as they crop up. And before it gets mentioned, putting up all this sort of stuff on the website is not the way to do it. That in itself could cause more harm than good in the long run.