New Law in California

[Umbran]

I've tried passive-aggressively just believing they were wrong. Funny. Nothing happened.

It isn't like "passive-aggressively just believing they were wrong" and "direct confrontation and calling them stupid" are the only tactics available.

You're a gamer, right? So, think creatively. You have a monster in front of you - but it is too big to just do a frontal assault. And walking away means it keeps the treasure. What do you do? You find a way to trick it, or go around it, right?

You have people who have a heartfelt belief that is resistant to simple statements of fact. Just getting in their faces with facts and trying to insult/shame them doesn't work.

So, you approach them with fewer facts, less "You are wrongity-wrong!", less personal accusation, but more emotionally gripping human impact. Or, you just realize the adults are a lost cause, and go for the youth who don't yet have the biases engaged.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Just curious, but what do you guys see as the ultimate result of having these "civil" discussions with an anti-vaccer, or someone similar? What's the purpose of that discussion?

 

[Uder]

It may make you feel better, but psychologically speaking, that just reinforces their bunker mentality. IOW, it grinds the possibility of meaningful discussion to dust.

Or, to put it differently: you're not helping.

I'm not really worried that pointing out someone is being stupid doesn't make them smarter. I care about my family's health. We were at freaking Disneyland during Christmas this year. I personally had the single shot that isn't as effective, and was at risk.

They can suck it. If it was a crime I'd call the cops, but like someone pooping on their own lawn, all I can do is shout "yer dum!"

 

[Uder]

It isn't like "passive-aggressively just believing they were wrong" and "direct confrontation and calling them stupid" are the only tactics available.

You're a gamer, right? So, think creatively. You have a monster in front of you - but it is too big to just do a frontal assault. And walking away means it keeps the treasure. What do you do? You find a way to trick it, or go around it, right?

You have people who have a heartfelt belief that is resistant to simple statements of fact. Just getting in their faces with facts and trying to insult/shame them doesn't work.

So, you approach them with fewer facts, less "You are wrongity-wrong!", less personal accusation, but more emotionally gripping human impact. Or, you just realize the adults are a lost cause, and go for the youth who don't yet have the biases engaged.

I don't have to handle real-life conversations like a forum moderator trying to maintain the peace. I'm not trying to win a debate, that's already been done and we're going to see more laws like this. Hopefully a pro-vaccination candidate gets elected in 2016 (Bush, Clinton, Santorum, Kasich, Rubio, Sanders, O'Malley, Clinton, & Jindal are all stongly pro-vaccine, others are opposed or have their fingers in the wind on the issue)

 

[Umbran]

I'm not really worried that pointing out someone is being stupid doesn't make them smarter. I care about my family's health.

If you care about your family's health, then you want *other people* to get their kids vaccinated. Pointing out they are stupid will generally make them *less* likely to do so.

So, if you do that, you are not helping your own cause.

 

[Ryujin]

Ultimately if what you want is to protect your family, then you do whatever is expedient to the purpose. Clearly 'winning the debate' doesn't seem to be an option, because the anti-vaccers just pull a David Spade. You either try to convince them with reason that vaccines are safe and the best way to keep their children happy, or you throw in the towel there and convince politicians to pass laws that force them to vaccinate their children.

Ultimately I would prefer that reason hold sway and people make the right choices by themselves, but some people have their heads buried in buckets of cement.

 

[Uder]

If you care about your family's health, then you want *other people* to get their kids vaccinated. Pointing out they are stupid will generally make them *less* likely to do so.

So, if you do that, you are not helping your own cause.

Umbran, you're not even wrong. There is no debate, there is no cause. This is my cause like the earth being round is my cause. I wouldn't think twice of calling out a flat-earther for having idiotic views either.

The debate has been won, we just need laws (like the one finally passed here in California) that force the morons to get with the program and stop essentially abusing their children.

 

[Umbran]

The debate has been won, we just need laws (like the one finally passed here in California) that force the morons to get with the program and stop essentially abusing their children.

And if everyplace was like California, then yes, that'll work.

And if not...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just curious, but what do you guys see as the ultimate result of having these "civil" discussions with an anti-vaccer, or someone similar? What's the purpose of that discussion?

I know of a rabbi who convinced the white supremacist who was victimizing him to abandon his hate. It took conversations over the course of many months- usually initiated by the victimizer who was calling to harass the rabbi and his family. That neo-nazi eventually married a Hispanic woman, and when he fell seriously ill, he even lived with the rabbi and his family

IOW, while you may not think much of the diplomatic approach, it actually can work. And statistics show it is general a more effective tactic than confrontation.

Confrontation has its place. But it is usually best as a tool of penultimate or last resort, not as a standard tactic.

 

[Uder]

And if everyplace was like California, then yes, that'll work.

And if not...

...

(thunder, ominous music)