New Legends & Lore (Rules, rules, rules)

[Walking Dad]

Originally Posted by P1NBACK
Yes. Early editions had a lot of emergent gameplay that has been lost because of the hard-coding of recent editions.

Agreed. But not everything that emerged was actually good or fun.
...

Can you give me an example?

Of course: The DM allowing a STR check from his body to allow him to climb better than the rogue. (This is just the first memory that came to my mind.)

And of course many, many misjudgments of the difficulties of tasks and how physics work.

I like to see guidelines, DCs and hard-coded rules as a second unbiased opinion for the DM to look up if he isn't sure how he handle a situation.

And they give the system cohesion if you play with different groups.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Of course: The DM allowing a STR check from his body to allow him to climb better than the rogue. (This is just the first memory that came to my mind.)

Isn't that the way 4E does it? STR/Athletics.

 

[P1NBACK]

Of course: The DM allowing a STR check from his body to allow him to climb better than the rogue. (This is just the first memory that came to my mind.)

That's not emergent gameplay.

A Fighter in old school D&D can't even attempt the sort of climbs Thieves can do with their Climb Sheer Surfaces ability. If they could, your DM used a house rule.

That's like me saying, "My 4E DM allows the Fighter bonus damage on Sneak Attack because he thinks they should deal as much damage as a Rogue... What crappy emergent gameplay!!!"

That's playing by house rules (a totally different concept...). Emergent gameplay is not house rules some DM makes... It's what occurs because of the rules in place that isn't necessarily apparent by simply reading the rules. It's the effect of the rules on gameplay that come about without a specific rule being in place for it.

The 15 minute workday is an example of emergent gameplay. There's no rule that says adventurers should end the adventure once they've "blown their load", but it happens because of the rules in place (i.e. Daily powerz).

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's not emergent gameplay.

A Fighter in old school D&D can't even attempt the sort of climbs Thieves can do with their Climb Sheer Surfaces ability. If they could, your DM used a house rule.

A fighter climbs with an ability check. A Thief gets their climb sheer surfaces check. Anything else was extremely badly explained by the book, leading to Murphy's Rules.

And if you want emergent gameplay that's just annoying, ten foot poles, ear trumpets, and other tools of bizzarre paranoia.

 

[P1NBACK]

A fighter climbs with an ability check. A Thief gets their climb sheer surfaces check. Anything else was extremely badly explained by the book, leading to Murphy's Rules.

And if you want emergent gameplay that's just annoying, ten foot poles, ear trumpets, and other tools of bizzarre paranoia.

I'm sorry man, that's not the rules. If you're playing by house rules, that has nothing to do with emergent gameplay (as far as what I'm talking about).

Ten foot poles are annoying?

Wow.

My players find them useful tools, like torches, iron spikes, etc. Is it annoying to you to spike doors? See in the dark? Etc?

Why should we have this emergent gameplay of lighting torches! I'll just make all my dungeons brightly lit!

Hilarious.

 

[Balesir]

The 15 minute workday is an example of emergent gameplay. There's no rule that says adventurers should end the adventure once they've "blown their load", but it happens because of the rules in place (i.e. Daily powerz).

Or Vancian spellz...

The thing with the "ten foot pole" I think was the endless drills to make sure you didn't get hit by a "gotcha" trap. Every door we had: check every gap for light, smells, etc., check above the door, check below the door, check to the left of the door, check to the right of the door, check for traps, check the lock, check for ear mites, listen at the door (using ear trumpet!), open the door...

There's a corridor beyond.

...check above the door, check below the door, check to the left of the door, check to the right of the door, check for traps, poke the floor...

...and so on and so on. But, I think this was gameplay emergent from a DM-ing/adventure style, rather than the rules, as such.

Pre 2E, IIRC, the thieves' "Climb Walls" was just that, incidentally - not "Climb Sheer surfaces" at all. Which left a weird "grey zone" with easier climbs that, reasonably, anyone ought to have a chance at but no system existed for.

One early "emergent gameplay" element I remember was with alignment. Alignment was supposed to be private to the character, but you had to worship a god of the same alignment as yourself. So the party thief followed you to your temple and, it soon became generally accepted, alignment was effectively a matter of public record.

 

[P1NBACK]

Or Vancian spellz...

Well, Vancian spellz are daily powerz, are they not?

The thing with the "ten foot pole" I think was the endless drills to make sure you didn't get hit by a "gotcha" trap. Every door we had: check every gap for light, smells, etc., check above the door, check below the door, check to the left of the door, check to the right of the door, check for traps, check the lock, check for ear mites, listen at the door (using ear trumpet!), open the door...

There's a corridor beyond.

...check above the door, check below the door, check to the left of the door, check to the right of the door, check for traps, poke the floor...

...and so on and so on. But, I think this was gameplay emergent from a DM-ing/adventure style, rather than the rules, as such.

Standard Operating Procedures. Yup.

I think for us, when we say, "I'm searching the door for traps" - this is what we mean. And, that's why it takes 10 minutes (1 turn).

Pre 2E, IIRC, the thieves' "Climb Walls" was just that, incidentally - not "Climb Sheer surfaces" at all. Which left a weird "grey zone" with easier climbs that, reasonably, anyone ought to have a chance at but no system existed for.

From Greyhawk little brown book, circa 1976:

While they cannot learn spells, thieves of the highest levels are able to read those spells
written on scrolls. Basic abilities are:
— open locks by picking or foiling magical closures
— remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)
— listen for noise behind closed doors
— move with great stealth
— filtch items and pick pockets
— hide in shadows
— strike silently from behind
— climb nearly sheer surfaces, upwards or downwards

One early "emergent gameplay" element I remember was with alignment. Alignment was supposed to be private to the character, but you had to worship a god of the same alignment as yourself. So the party thief followed you to your temple and, it soon became generally accepted, alignment was effectively a matter of public record.

That's an interesting observation.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I see a customizable skill rules option. 10 pages in the PHB (resolution 1&2) and 30 pages in the DMG (resolution 3).

Three options for skill resolution chosen as a blanket system or applied case by case vs. a DM/group selects skill list.

For example,

Craft skills - level 2. If included.

Profession skills - level 1. If included.

Physical skills - level 3.

Diplomacy and social - varies.

etc.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm sorry man, that's not the rules. If you're playing by house rules, that has nothing to do with emergent gameplay (as far as what I'm talking about).

I'm sorry, man. But the rules are so badly explained that that is an honest reading of them that I've seen in a number of places.

Ten foot poles are annoying?

Wow.

Going along having to tap because some idiot built a dungeon that makes no sense and put the traps in the floor despite the presence of often drunk orcs is annoying.

My players find them useful tools, like torches, iron spikes, etc. Is it annoying to you to spike doors? See in the dark? Etc?

No. It's the ten foot pole and ear trumpet style of play. Where challenges are put in despite making no sense - and leading to turtling.

And that's IME a good example of emergent play that is incredibly annoying. Turtling. Paranoia caused at least in part by insane danger meaning very little gets done.

 

[P1NBACK]

Neonchameleon, I honestly can't take you seriously. Your comments don't reflect my (recent) play of old school D&D whatsoever and sound more like someone who's never actually played the game.

Maybe you were doing it wrong? *shrug*