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We already have a system for this: Skill challenges.

Skill challenges aren't a system. They're the skeleton of a system, and it takes a bunch of planning to flesh that skeleton out into something that works in an adventure and doesn't feel totally artificial. A large part of the reason I want skirmish fights is to throw in on the fly.

Besides, skill challenges are too abstract. I don't want to abstract out the little fights and other incidents of dungeon crawling, I just want them to take an amount of time proportional to their significance.

I think if we had a combat system that ran smoothly without minis (so we don't have to waste a lot of time setting up), and a grade of monster in between minions and standard monsters, that would do the trick. And possibly a different attrition mechanic; healing surges as the primary form of attrition seem unsatisfying to me, but maybe that's because when I'm a player, I'm usually standing in the back throwing spells and not getting hit much.
 
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The way I have been using Skill Challenges recently has included 'skirmish fights'. Some SCs have minor encounters when a failure is rolled - the sum of these amount to the XP for the SC, so that a failed SC can still be "worth" the XP and the characters advance regardless. The minor encounters have context, and involve maybe a "normal" monster and some minions. Not enough XP for a "proper encounter", but an integrated part of the game nevertheless.

Monstro's blog on the WotC Community site has some good thoughts on this stuff - look under the "Featured" section.
 

I can't say much to this except that I don't find it to be the case at all. I have run Hârn using a board and figures (albeit rather differently than I do for D&D 4E), and the immersion was just fine - better, I think, than it would have been without the board and figures (and mini trees and rocks, but that's another story...).

I don't have anything to say here, except that the quote you're replying to didn't come from me (unless I've started losing my mind. :) ).

No, I'm giving an honest answer, as I see it. It's like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?" - there is no direct answer I can give that is not misleading and/or inaccurate. I really, strongly, do not think that character levels reflects any sort of real or fictional phenomenon. It's a game mechanism, pure and simple. I could say that level 1 = Rocky or Sam Spade and level 30 = Atlas or Merlin, but Rocky will never become Atlas, and Merlin never was Sam Spade - the comparison is misleading.

Well, fair enough. Although it's perhaps worth noting that Luke Skywalker did go from being just a farm boy to being Jedi Grand Master, and Rand Al'Thor went from being a farm boy to the Dragon Reborn. (Hmm, may be a pattern there...)

Even if these characters don't level up, I still think it's useful to have some idea of where they sit in the level range. It makes it easier when you hand a player a character to be able to say "think Sam Spade" or "think Atlas" - it gives them some idea of what to work with.

And likewise, this would help DMs (and the designers) when creating adventures and setting challenges. If they can think, "This is a Paragon adventure; how would I challenge Aragorn?", or "Epic level. Hmm, challenges for Achillies", that at least gives them something to aim for.

(Though in 4e as written, Aragorn actually appears to be a 1st level character.)

Edit: Of course, they could just as well say something like, "In the Heroic tier, PCs hide from dragons; in the Paragon tier, they fight Dragons; in the Epic tier, they ride dragons." Not sure which would be a better way of getting a handle on it all.

The way I have been using Skill Challenges recently has included 'skirmish fights'. Some SCs have minor encounters when a failure is rolled - the sum of these amount to the XP for the SC, so that a failed SC can still be "worth" the XP and the characters advance regardless. The minor encounters have context, and involve maybe a "normal" monster and some minions. Not enough XP for a "proper encounter", but an integrated part of the game nevertheless.

Very cool idea.
 
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Epic's ... er... "epicness" is revealed when you look at the Demigod ED. Once you hit level 21, you are a deity (a weak one, but still)! This is the tier where you go to the Underworld to retrieve Cerberus, or hold up the world on your shoulders or fight alongside the gods against the Gigantes (just to mention Herakles' campaign).
 

I always think of the progress of Teirs as:
Heroic: Bruce Wayne after returning to Gotham in Batman Begins - He starts as highly skilled but no hero, refining his arsenal and becoming "The Bat-man" = Urban Legend in and around Gotham.

Paragon: "The Bat-man" becomes Batman = known hero, famous across the globe.

Epic: Batman teams up with the JLA and they save the planet from "OMG UberThing Of The This Year's Summer Release Schedule".
 

I've never heard a more damning indictment of the battlemat-centric mode of combat.

But the counterpoint is that, without the battlemat, you instead have some players spending 2 minutes asking the DM to better describe where everyone in the room is, if they are close enough to attack, or move behind cover, etc. Even if the DM just described all the same things on the last player's turn.

Thing is, it will often be the same player in each example. Some player's are more easily distracted than others. I don't think the majority of battle-mat combats involve players who literally don't remember which mini belongs to them - nor do the majority of sketch map combats or DM description combats involve constant confusion of details.

But both have that potential, and the confusion usually arises based on specific players, not the system being used.

The actual comment itself, if you ignore the battlemap itself, is a good one. If you want a ten minute combat, you either need instantaneous player turns, or very, very few rounds.

How long does a player take to do their thing? Even if playing quickly, I'd imagine it takes 1 to 2 minutes - giving them a chance to describe what they are doing cinematically, mention the specific mechanical attack, roll the dice, add up the numbers, and then have the DM tally the results. Not even counting occasional slowdowns for quick tactics questions, other players going on a tangent, etc.

So, you've got 5 players, and each one takes 1-2 minutes for their turn. Plus the DM, of course, who may have multiple monsters - but let's assume is a bit more efficient with them, so his turn takes 3-4 minutes.

And, of course, that is just one round of combat. Now, combat's don't need to go on forever, but I found that it takes a few rounds for it to feel like a real battle - if you just charge in and everything is over in the first swing, not sure how exciting that exchange really is. So let's assume that 3 rounds is a standard amount for a solid combat.

Assuming the minimum speed for players - 1 minute turns - and a 3 minute turn for a DM... that's a 24 minute combat.

For a ten minute combat, you'll need to either have everything over in a single round, or have player's acting so quickly as to totally remove the engagement in the game.

"Ok, Joe, your turn."
"Move to Orc 2, attack. Rolled a 17 to hit, for 9 damage. Done."
"John, go."
"Shoot arrows at Orc 5. Rolled a 13 and a 15, either hit?"
"The second."
"6 damage. Then I move behind these crates. Done."

Sure, you've sped things up to 20-30 second player turns... but is that really what you want? Do you want players to feel like taking their turn is a job to get over with as quickly as possible? Do you want combat to just be an exchange of shouted numbers?

For myself... maybe there are times when it is nice, and you want the quick and bloody skirmish that is over in 10 minutes. Keep people moving fast, have it a bloody fight over in 1-2 rounds.

For most fights, though, I want a bit more room for players to engage, and enough time for the combat to actually feel dynamic. And for that, the 20-30 minute fight is great. That, honestly, is the sweet spot I think is worth aiming for. And the 45 minute to 1 hour combat should be the rare exception for boss fights and truly cinematic encounters.
 

I don't have anything to say here, except that the quote you're replying to didn't come from me (unless I've started losing my mind. :) ).
Oops! Sorry - got my quotes jumbled up! Corrected now, I hope.

Well, fair enough. Although it's perhaps worth noting that Luke Skywalker did go from being just a farm boy to being Jedi Grand Master, and Rand Al'Thor went from being a farm boy to the Dragon Reborn. (Hmm, may be a pattern there...)
I've never heard of Rand Al'Thor (Arabic god of thunder?), but Star Wars would be a specific exception, yes - but informed by a culture that included D&D, I think.

Even if these characters don't level up, I still think it's useful to have some idea of where they sit in the level range. It makes it easier when you hand a player a character to be able to say "think Sam Spade" or "think Atlas" - it gives them some idea of what to work with.
Since we tend to start almost all our games at first level and take it up from there, this isn't really necessary for the players. For NPCs it might be useful - but then there is the PC example to use, instead, generally.

If it works for some, I think they should use it! The irony is, though, that it kind of works because of its absence in fiction. I mean, if "Atlas" meant a character who could be anywhere from first to thirtieth level, giving him as an example of "an Epic character" wouldn't work, would it?
 

Oops! Sorry - got my quotes jumbled up! Corrected now, I hope.

I've never heard of Rand Al'Thor (Arabic god of thunder?), but Star Wars would be a specific exception, yes - but informed by a culture that included D&D, I think.

Since we tend to start almost all our games at first level and take it up from there, this isn't really necessary for the players. For NPCs it might be useful - but then there is the PC example to use, instead, generally.

If it works for some, I think they should use it! The irony is, though, that it kind of works because of its absence in fiction. I mean, if "Atlas" meant a character who could be anywhere from first to thirtieth level, giving him as an example of "an Epic character" wouldn't work, would it?
Rand is the main character in the wheel of time novels. A messiah type character with humble roots. I recommend those novels. I here they plan to make a movie from them.
 

But the counterpoint is that, without the battlemat, you instead have some players spending 2 minutes asking the DM to better describe where everyone in the room is, if they are close enough to attack, or move behind cover, etc. Even if the DM just described all the same things on the last player's turn.

Those are both extreme examples, though. I never see players taking a minute to remember which mini is theirs. What I do see is players spending a lot of time working out exactly which square to move to, instead of just saying "I run over next to the goblin sharpshooter." Not to mention the time it takes to sketch out the battlefield, get out the minis, and position everyone.

And then half the time the players have questions about the map anyway...

How long does a player take to do their thing? Even if playing quickly, I'd imagine it takes 1 to 2 minutes - giving them a chance to describe what they are doing cinematically, mention the specific mechanical attack, roll the dice, add up the numbers, and then have the DM tally the results. Not even counting occasional slowdowns for quick tactics questions, other players going on a tangent, etc.

For a skirmish fight? 1-2 minute turns? Hell no. At least in my view, a skirmish fight should go something like this:

Fighter player: "I run forward and attack the big orc. [rolls] I hit AC 22, 11 damage."
DM: "You shatter his skull and he drops. Dire wolves' turn. The two dire wolves come at you from either side. [rolls a couple times] AC 18 and 24."
Fighter player: "24 hits, 18 misses."
DM: "You block one dire wolf with your shield. The other tears a strip out of your arm. Next!"
Rogue player: "That rope holding the door to the wolves' cage up. Can I hack through it and swing across the cave to the shaman's ledge?"
DM: "Sure. You cut the rope and the cage door falls. Roll Acrobatics."
Rogue player: "I got a 17."
DM: "That'll do. You land next to the shaman."
Rogue player: "Can I attack him too?"
DM: "Hmm... yeah, we'll call it a charge attack. You can even sneak attack, since he totally wasn't expecting that. Make your roll."
Rogue player: "AC 20, 15 damage."
DM: "You put a knife in his belly. He's looking bad but he's not quite down. Next!"

We're looking at 15-30 seconds per turn here. The whole idea of a skirmish fight is to be fast-paced, with a high energy level. People waffling over tactics defeats the point. This is one reason I think a non-battlemat option is an absolute necessity for good skirmishing; battlemats add a huge amount to the waffle factor. Players get focused on winning a board game instead of fighting a battle in their imaginations, and when you're playing a board game you want to think through your moves.
 
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This is my biggest gripe with 4e. Not that the rules are not good... they are too good to be honest. We are too easily lost in the skirmishing game that results from the exciting gameplay :(

I really miss those description combats... but i guess this is a thing of the past... we must improve on what we have now...
 
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