New Legends & Lore

But the counterpoint is that, without the battlemat, you instead have some players spending 2 minutes asking the DM to better describe where everyone in the room is, if they are close enough to attack, or move behind cover, etc. Even if the DM just described all the same things on the last player's turn.

That's not a very good counterpoint.

The question is, "What can I hit?"

If you have a set of quick rules for determining this, you don't need anything more than a conversation.

And by far the best answer is "Anything you want to hit."

Think about all the little fiddly bits this eradicates.

Ranged and melee are equal.
No futzing with "threatening reach" or "reach", so size increases and decreases become easy to do, so size differences in combat are easier.
No "opportunity attack" futziness.
No worry about how many squares you can move through which kinds of terrain.
Hitting multiple targets? Okay, hit everything. You don't have to worry about friendly fire (no enemies/allies arbitrariness).

Player 1 wants to wail on some goblin with his axe? All the DM has to say is "Gimmie an attack roll, buddy!"

Now, that's kind of an extreme end of the continuum, and a little bit of relative positioning is probably desirable (at least an "adjacent to" entry that tells you what you're in melee range with), but you don't need an accurate picture of precise locations in order to play D&D. You just need to know what you can hit (and what can hit you).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

You just need to know what you can hit (and what can hit you).

And what conditions they're affected by. And if you or they can move without taking OAs. And if you're near the three trap panels in the room. And if you're near the secret escape hatch. And if you're near the cliff. And if you're near the lurker who snuck back toward the door you came in through. And whether there's any cover nearby. And if any of the zones the shadow dragon dropped are in your zone's space. And whether you're flanking/being flanked. And who is adjacent to the shaman's spirit companion. And whether the ranger or the warlock are closest to a target. And if the wall spell you cast is high enough to touch the low ceiling in the room. :hmm:

That all said, while I don't know how viable a product it would be, official D&D Story Game and LARPing manuals would be kind of snazzy for those who engage in those types of RPGs.
 

Maybe announcing actions at the start of the turn was the main factor of fast combats back in the 90s... so everyone knew, waht the other people intended... and you didn´t have to adjust your tactic after every player´s turn...

no most probably a bad idea...
 
Last edited:

Maybe announcing actions at the start of the turn was the main factor of fast combats back in the 90s... so everyone knew, waht the other people intended... and you didn´t have to adjust your tactic after every player´s turn...

Nah. In the 90s, you just didn't have much you could do from round to round.

In 4E, you can pull off standard, standard, move, minor, immediate action, and then several opportunity actions and free actions, on a regular basis. In the 90s you only got swamped like that if your party was into summoning.
 

Nah. In the 90s, you just didn't have much you could do from round to round.
That's not completely true. You didn't have the same type of mechanical validation of the character's actions, but those validations only cover specific choices / circumstances. In 1e / 2e you had no specific rules for for sliding down a banister or swinging from a chandelier, but you still don't in 4e. 4e lets you do more with less work as long as you want to do what your powers / feats describe. (And a skill system will let you adjudicate other actions with more standardization, which some like and some don't.)

But I think "declare then initiative" is more valuable in terms of creating a particular atmosphere than in speeding things up. IMO 4e doesn't just "take longer", it mainly takes more organization to avoid taking longer. Players who are paying attention know what they're going to do and how they're going to do it mechanically, and are prepared to handle the player end of their actions just play faster in any edition. 4e has just increased the difference between fast players and slower ones.
 

And what conditions they're affected by. And if you or they can move without taking OAs. And if you're near the three trap panels in the room. And if you're near the secret escape hatch. And if you're near the cliff. And if you're near the lurker who snuck back toward the door you came in through. And whether there's any cover nearby. And if any of the zones the shadow dragon dropped are in your zone's space. And whether you're flanking/being flanked. And who is adjacent to the shaman's spirit companion. And whether the ranger or the warlock are closest to a target. And if the wall spell you cast is high enough to touch the low ceiling in the room. :hmm

Even if you put all those things together in the same encounter, I don't think it would be difficult to keep track of it all. I've run more complicated encounters without minis and everything went smoothly.
 

And what conditions they're affected by. And if you or they can move without taking OAs. And if you're near the three trap panels in the room. And if you're near the secret escape hatch. And if you're near the cliff. And if you're near the lurker who snuck back toward the door you came in through. And whether there's any cover nearby. And if any of the zones the shadow dragon dropped are in your zone's space. And whether you're flanking/being flanked. And who is adjacent to the shaman's spirit companion. And whether the ranger or the warlock are closest to a target. And if the wall spell you cast is high enough to touch the low ceiling in the room.

See, half of those are totally unnecessary.

Conditions? Okay.

OA's? Nonexistent. Nobody provokes for anything (a system designed with this would take it into account when designing spells/ranged attacks/etc.)

Near the trap panels or escape hatch or cliff or cover? You can reach them and do something with them on your turn. You're far enough away to have to avoid constant worry, but not so far away that you couldn't get there (or be tossed there) with relative ease.

Near the lurker? This is the "What can hit me?" question. Answer: Everything. That lurker is a threat, and he'll be able to reach you on his turn.

Zones? Nonexistent. Perhaps instead you have a battlefield effect that affects everything on the battlefield until it takes an action to negate the effect. In which case, yes, you're in it, unless you've designated that you're not.

Flanked? Nonexistent. Perhaps instead you use Aid Another for the same effect.

Adjacent to the shaman's spirit companion or ranger or warlock closest or wall spell high enough? Nonsensical in the context of an abstract combat system. You gain no benefit from proximity to anything, and your wall spell is high enough if you want it to be.

All this, of course, assumes that the system is designed from the ground up to not be minis or grid-based. Which is part of why it's kind of impossible to do this with 4e as it stands now. Though it's easier with Essentials than with core 4e, still, any push/pull/slide effect is largely meaningless.

That all said, while I don't know how viable a product it would be, official D&D Story Game and LARPing manuals would be kind of snazzy for those who engage in those types of RPGs.

All it means is that you give up the precise positioning dimension of combat. We already treat so many things in the game as abstract -- hit points, rations, attacks, healing, blah blah blah -- adding "your exact location in spacetime" to the list is, IMO, kind of overdue. ;)

When you choose to do this, you also gain a game that is very easy to introduce people to. They don't need to buy another $100 in plastic, grids, and fobs, and they don't need to invest another 2 hours in learning the ins and outs of OA's, reach, adjacency, flanking, imaginary cover lines, and positioning.

D&D has abandoned simulation in so many ways, I think it could only gain by abandoning simulation of the character's exact location.

Of course, I am not a minis fan, so there's grains of salt to be had in my criticisms. Still, this is the kind of game I want to play.
 

By removing all of those, Kamikaze, you remove a huge chunk of the game. I'm quite sure there are already games that play like that, but D&D is a different game. You can certainly use many ideas and themes from D&D, of course, but what you speak of is a completely different system.
 

Actually, that's a pretty fair description of how we ran 1e/2e in every group I played with. I would have to concur it made combat dramatically faster. For most "regional" effects i.e. exploding traps and the like, we used at arbitrary "the trap effects 1d4 of you... mechanic and assigned those it affected by a designator role (1-2 on d6 hits the fighter, 3-4 the cleric etc.). Or just had everything hit everything, which is why fireball was never as iconically popular in our games. <<evil grin>>
 

It's going to be funny if the real reason people think earlier editions were faster is because they never actually played those editions by the rules. :P
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top