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[Faraer]

No one suggested they were.

 

[Swordsage]

I'm just unclear on one point. What exactly are you debating? I mean, you're attacking Gygax on many levels, but are you hoping to prove that the Demonweb Pits were indeed originally crafted as part of FR? I couldn't care less when Greenwood dreamed up this country or that NPC, what does that have to do with a module that was published years before he was part of the company?

Maybe the Demonweb Pits were not imagined until 2 minutes before the module was written, that still leaves years before Greenwood's influence at TSR, doesn't it?

I consider books to be created when they're published, the FR may have existed in some fashion before that but it's meaningless to the discussion of whether the Demonweb Pits, Drow, or Lolth/ Lloth are part of the FR cosmos first.

The creation of the "Demonweb Pits" (whose substance owe just as much to Dave Sutherland as they do to Gary Gygax, if not more) was stated to have occurred before the creation of the Realms. Faraer commented that this was not so if discussing the Realms as a campaign setting. The Realms existed as Ed's home campaign from the inception of D&D gaming, and existed for years before that as a setting for Ed's fantasy writings. However, in terms of published products under the TSR banner, the Demonweb Pits certainly predated FR. That's what the discussion is about. It seems clear however that Ed Greenwood swiftly incorporated drow and Lolth in his campaign as soon as the G, D & eventually Q modules were released as they featured quite seamlessly in the 1987 boxed set that launched FR.

The Swordsage

 

[Vocenoctum]

The creation of the "Demonweb Pits" (whose substance owe just as much to Dave Sutherland as they do to Gary Gygax, if not more) was stated to have occurred before the creation of the Realms. Faraer commented that this was not so if discussing the Realms as a campaign setting.

Actually, there was no qualifier on it, I said Demonweb Pits predated FR, he said it didn't. If he'd said "though FR had no influence on the Demonweb Pits, the actual campaign was created long before it was published" Erik Mona wouldn't have had to clarify the matter at all, and this whole discussion wouldn't have taken place.

In addition, you're the one to bring up Gygax, so I don't see how that affects whether Expedition to Demonweb Pits is FR or not.

The Realms existed as Ed's home campaign from the inception of D&D gaming, and existed for years before that as a setting for Ed's fantasy writings. However, in terms of published products under the TSR banner, the Demonweb Pits certainly predated FR. That's what the discussion is about. It seems clear however that Ed Greenwood swiftly incorporated drow and Lolth in his campaign as soon as the G, D & eventually Q modules were released as they featured quite seamlessly in the 1987 boxed set that launched FR.

The Swordsage

While his input was central, it's also worth noting that FR did have other input during it's publishing career. What's "obvious" in the boxed set doesn't mean it was automatically part of anything before then.


Either way, it's obvious that the "Demonweb Pits" long predate the "Demonweb Pits In FR", so I'm still not sure what the discussion is about.

 

[Swordsage]

I guess you weren't playing when these modules were released. EVERYTHING came out months and years apart, even if it had already been used in his game or in a tournament. Good lord, the Temple of Elemental Evil came out YEARS after the Village of Hommlett; we were all climbing the walls waiting for "T2" to come out, for instance.

I guess I was actually, to answer the slightly condescending connotations of your comment. If EVERYTHING came out months and years apart it may suggest one of a couple of things. One: Gygax was a lazy so-and-so who couldn't get his act together to get stuff in publishable form. Two: Gygax had too much on his plate but being a shocking delegator and not very 'collegiate' in his approach to D&D, couldn't churn out the products required. Or Three: He had no overrall idea or view of the many and disparate elements of his campaign world and was reactive rather than proactive regarding product releases.

Of the three, I lean more to the the last. YMMV. We need a tournament module for Origins. Hey, I've got a great idea for using giants. Hey, great stuff Gary. We should publish this for the wider gaming community and make some $$$. Hey, great idea.

That scenario hardly points to Gygax having an over-arching, world-building view and attitude to the various (wonderful) game elements that came out of these tournament modules. He just made stuff up as needed - and most of it was awesome to be fair to the man - but it's not like he then sat down and mapped out the genesis of drow in GH, how they interacted with the Suel whose borders they lived underneath etc. etc. That's what I'm talking about.

The 1E Monster Manual serves as a pretty big hint in that regard, actually.

The 1E Monster Manual gives us hints regarding the G & D series and their 'place' in the GH firmament? Umm, where? The drow aren't even in the 1E MM.

You seriously are putting way too much weight on "all tournament modules," as though they were all created under the same circumstances under some sort of strict guidelines.

Yeah, maybe. But I've never read or heard anything that says otherwise. They were created for tourneys. That's a given. The question is whether in doing so Gygax was just coming up with stuff for tourney play, or whether he was taking stuff out of his own campaign and using these elements to create tourney adventures. The first sounds a lot more credible.

The Swordsage

 

[Swordsage]

Either way, it's obvious that the "Demonweb Pits" long predate the "Demonweb Pits In FR", so I'm still not sure what the discussion is about.

Possibly. But think on this. If I'm DM-ing my homebrew world of "Swordsagia" and go and buy D1-2 Descent into the Depths when it is first released and instantly realise what a great concept drow are and add them into "Swordsagia" straight away, does drow presence in the GH world "long predate" drow presence in Swordsagia if my campaign setting is subsequently purchased and released by WotC 20 years later? No, didn't think so. Ed Greenwood incorporated most everything that Gygax came up with into his campaign setting. And he did it as these new concepts were released into the wider gaming community, just like we all did. So likely a short time after D1-2, drow appeared in the Realms. Similarly, the Demonweb Pits as a home to Lolth also was likely incorporated into the Realms soon after the release of Q1. It might not have been the same in every detail, but I'd be willing to bet it was called "the Demonweb Pits".

But yes, I agree that this discussion has become a convoluted one. To simplify what I'm saying I'll break it down into two statements:
1. If we are talking about who first featured a concept in published products then yes, the Demonweb Pits in GH 'long predated' the Realms.
2. If we are talking about incorporating elements of Gary's work into homebrew settings, then it is likely that the Demonweb Pits as a place where Lolth hung her hat existed in the Realms shortly after the release of Q1.

The Swordsage

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Hell, people, if we're arguing about the timeline of published D&D settings, Dragonlance predates the publication of the Forgotten Realms as a setting proper, if not Ed's original run of articles in Dragon Magazine.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Possibly. But think on this. If I'm DM-ing my homebrew world of "Swordsagia" and go and buy D1-2 Descent into the Depths when it is first released and instantly realise what a great concept drow are and add them into "Swordsagia" straight away, does drow presence in the GH world "long predate" drow presence in Swordsagia if my campaign setting is subsequently purchased and released by WotC 20 years later?

The subject is, would that mean 20 years later than you invented Drow?

No, didn't think so. Ed Greenwood incorporated most everything that Gygax came up with into his campaign setting. And he did it as these new concepts were released into the wider gaming community, just like we all did. So likely a short time after D1-2, drow appeared in the Realms. Similarly, the Demonweb Pits as a home to Lolth also was likely incorporated into the Realms soon after the release of Q1. It might not have been the same in every detail, but I'd be willing to bet it was called "the Demonweb Pits".

But yes, I agree that this discussion has become a convoluted one. To simplify what I'm saying I'll break it down into two statements:
1. If we are talking about who first featured a concept in published products then yes, the Demonweb Pits in GH 'long predated' the Realms.
2. If we are talking about incorporating elements of Gary's work into homebrew settings, then it is likely that the Demonweb Pits as a place where Lolth hung her hat existed in the Realms shortly after the release of Q1.

The Swordsage

The question was;
"But aren't the Demonweb Pits part of the Faerun altered cosmology instead of the former Planescape cosmology? That would suggest it to be a planar FR expedition book instead of a Planescape expedition book. Of course, it could also be said to be a planar expedition book in general, I suppose . . ."

Obviously Demonweb Pits predates FR, the rest is off-subject. And seriously, the Gygax bashing has no basis here.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I guess I was actually, to answer the slightly condescending connotations of your comment.

Gee, I thought that's what we've been doing. You came in snide and have stayed snide and condescending ever since.

If EVERYTHING came out months and years apart it may suggest one of a couple of things. One: Gygax was a lazy so-and-so who couldn't get his act together to get stuff in publishable form. Two: Gygax had too much on his plate but being a shocking delegator and not very 'collegiate' in his approach to D&D, couldn't churn out the products required. Or Three: He had no overrall idea or view of the many and disparate elements of his campaign world and was reactive rather than proactive regarding product releases.

Or four: TSR didn't have the cash flow to publish terribly quickly and D&D wasn't paying all the bills for everyone in the early days. Or five: We don't know enough to speculate or to slam someone for what they did or didn't do almost 30 years ago, even if this is the Internet.

That scenario hardly points to Gygax having an over-arching, world-building view and attitude to the various (wonderful) game elements that came out of these tournament modules. He just made stuff up as needed - and most of it was awesome to be fair to the man - but it's not like he then sat down and mapped out the genesis of drow in GH, how they interacted with the Suel whose borders they lived underneath etc. etc. That's what I'm talking about.

Yes, make up a scenario and then damn Gygax using it. He's not even here to defend himself against this strawman.

The 1E Monster Manual gives us hints regarding the G & D series and their 'place' in the GH firmament? Umm, where? The drow aren't even in the 1E MM.

Look again.

But I have to echo the original question: Other than you just wanting to argue for its own sake, what's the point of this conversation? Did Gygax run over your dog? Did someone suggest that FR fans are bad people?

 

[paulsometimes]

I'm looking forward to the GH book the most. Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.

 

[Swordsage]

I'm leaving this thread as I've said my piece and it serves no purpose to keep flogging a dead tarrasque. Thanks for tha chat.

The Swordsage