New Monte Cook article Magic and Mystery

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I see magic items as coming from the setting/environment. Somehow the whole 4E approach, as I understand it, disrupts this for me.

I get that it's a playstyle thing. But, why specifically call out 4e here for something that was common to other editions?

Furthermore, Bedrockgames, there is nothing inherent in either 3E or 4E that disrupts your playstyle. I share your playstyle and run 4E under those assumptions. The only modification I've made since my 1E days is to be careful not to hand out treasure that is completely useless to the entire party (this is an objective change between editions - for example - not every magic using class can use a wand in 4E). I don't ask for wish lists and outright ignore any suggestions that I adopt them from the players that have encountered them, much to their chagrin (but apparently not enough to make them dislike my playstyle).

 

[Guest 85555]

Furthermore, Bedrockgames, there is nothing inherent in either 3E or 4E that disrupts your playstyle. I share your playstyle and run 4E under those assumptions. The only modification I've made since my 1E days is to be careful not to hand out treasure that is completely useless to the entire party (this is an objective change between editions - for example - not every magic using class can use a wand in 4E). I don't ask for wish lists and outright ignore any suggestions that I adopt them from the players that have encountered them, much to their chagrin (but apparently not enough to make them dislike my playstyle).

With 3e wishlists were a trend rather than part of the mechanics so i wasnt calling out the system. I havent played a whole lot of 4e but my understanding was magic items were somehow factored into leveling. But i was really responding to the concepts that a poster put forward.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

I am defined more by what I (can) do than by the clothes that I wear, and yet there are those who would define me by the clothes I wear. At the same time, who I am defines the clothes I wear.

A character's gear is (or should be) a reflection of who the character is, and if that defines them in the mind of others that is not necessarily a reflection of reality.

And rather than depending upon what the dratted GM deigns to chuck into a treasure chest for them?

I agree that players should be in control of their character's nature and capabilities (as limited by the world and/or the rules). I don't see why equipment - much less one arbitrarily defined segment of equipment - should be an exception to this.

That screams of entitlement. Plus in the real world not everyone can get the equipment that suits them best and end up having to work with good enough. In the US Military there are a large number of soldiers that could be highly effective with weapons such an M249 SAWs or M82 Sniper Rifles, but end up assigned an M4 or M16. Street racers often have to use whatever vehicle is available to them instead of top of the line high performance sports cars and racing motorcycles.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

With 3e wishlists were a trend rather than part of the mechanics so i wasnt calling out the system. I havent played a whole lot of 4e but my understanding was magic items were somehow factored into leveling. But i was really responding to the concepts that a poster put forward.

Nope. All 4E did was replace Wealth By Level from 3E with Treasure Parcels. Same general concept, different approach. There is advice in the 4E DMG that DMs ask players for Wish Lists, but it does not make or break the system to include this advice. In fact, with Inherent Bonuses, 4E feels like the first edition of the game where I can run a zero-magic-item campaign (I've run really low, but not zero).

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

In fact, with Inherent Bonuses, 4E feels like the first edition of the game where I can run a zero-magic-item campaign (I've run really low, but not zero).

Yeah, because you enchanted the characters instead of the items.

 

[Guest 85555]

Nope. All 4E did was replace Wealth By Level from 3E with Treasure Parcels. Same general concept, different approach. There is advice in the 4E DMG that DMs ask players for Wish Lists, but it does not make or break the system to include this advice. In fact, with Inherent Bonuses, 4E feels like the first edition of the game where I can run a zero-magic-item campaign (I've run really low, but not zero).

I may be under the wrong impression then. Are players expected to get treaure parcels automatically. My main objection is to pc wishlists and the idea that pcs would automatically get magic items. However like i said i am objecting more to those concepts than editions.

 

[the Jester]

I am defined more by what I (can) do than by the clothes that I wear, and yet there are those who would define me by the clothes I wear. At the same time, who I am defines the clothes I wear.

A character's gear is (or should be) a reflection of who the character is, and if that defines them in the mind of others that is not necessarily a reflection of reality.

That's fine for certain playstyles, but not all. Your post is pretty one-true-wayish here.

I agree that players should be in control of their character's nature and capabilities (as limited by the world and/or the rules). I don't see why equipment - much less one arbitrarily defined segment of equipment - should be an exception to this.

This is a fantastic example of player entitlement. "Magic items are part of my leveling up process!" No, they aren't. Magic items are treasure.

Buy whatever "equipment" you want. I have no problem with you buying yourself a greatsword, scale mail, a 10' pole and a hand mirror.

But buying treasure? Not in my game, not for my playstyle- and treasure is what magic items are. Treasure that becomes gear once you find it. But unless you hand a potion of healing and immovable rod to the goblins, how on earth are you dictating what their treasure is?

I personally like Magic Items as an element of that "levelling up" process because they represent character design/development resources that are in the hands of the party, rather than a specific player. They give scope to "optimise the party", enhancing the party interdependence alongside the "roles" in 4E. They also help identify weaknesses in specific character roles or builds; if all the players agree that one specific role or character needs "extra help" from a disproportionate allocation of magic items, it can be indicative of an issue that could do with addressing.

And again, that's fine for certain playstyles, but in a campaign setting without lots of magic shops, it's hard to justify.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your style of D&D. It would be nice if you would acknowledge that yours is not the One True Way.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I may be under the wrong impression then. Are players expected to get treaure parcels automatically. My main objection is to pc wishlists and the idea that pcs would automatically get magic items. However like i said i am objecting more to those concepts than editions.

Treasure parcels are a DM tool to distribute Wealth By Level. If they so please. PCs don't get them automatically.

 

[Vascant]

I truly think they can write a million articles on this and even have rules in the book cover it but until they start to write adventures that yield little to no magic items as a reward as a common practice people will simple look to that as an example of what D&D is about.


As they say, lead by example

 

[Janx]

If we had to guess, what is the rough percentage of effectiveness, in the real world, granted by having the best tools over the worst (but still useful) ones?

Obviously, it varies some with the tool. A simple claw hammer that won't break in your hand can't be much improved for a short piece of work. Improvements are nearly all aimed at making it fit in your hand (fatigue over long use) and durability. Something much more complex, such as a computer, has a wider range--though still a definite cut off absent skill.

As a tool example, this came up in conversation the other day. In non-software development companies (ie, they don't write software as a product), IT shops will restrict and hand-out very baseline computers to every user. Developers need better computers, because the tools to write software often need more resources than the software itself. As a result, there's a often a conflict between IT and in-house development staff who need better than IT-expected computers.

1GB ram on an XP PC may be fine for office staff. Totally won't cut it running Visual Studio 2010 (which is literally consuming 1GB of ram by itself on my PC as I write this).

Now using this metaphor of My PC = My D&D Sword of bonuses I want. One could argue that if all I have is a crappy PC, I should use a lighter developer tool. Technically I can write a program on the computer. However, to solve the problem at hand, I actually do need a more powerful PC.

The same goes for magic swords. Sure, I could stick to killing rats and goblins with my non-magic sword. But if I am actually confronted by a level appropriate monster that has magic requirements to hit (silver, +1, etc), then I actually do need a proper magic weapon.

D&D has ALWAYS suffered from this concept. Werewolves always needed magic or silver to-hit. Other monsters always needed magic of a minimum + to hit. This meant that if the PCs encountered it, they HAD to have the item or were probably screwed.

Which leads us to, which came first, the weapon, the monster, news of the monster, news of the weapon?

If the PCs go looking for the monster without the right weapon, that's their fault, but then odds are good experienced players aren't going to do that.

If they go looking for the weapon they NEED so they can kill the monster, this is effectively WISHLIST behavior. They are telling the GM they want a certain weapon by seeking it out in the game.

If the PCs just run into the monster, it's the GMs goal to kill/thwart them, since he knows they don't have the weapon to deal with it.

If the PCs get news of the monster, they have the opportunity to decide whether to avoid it, or go seek out the proper weapon to defeat it.

Part of the christmas tree effect, is monsters that NEED specific weapons to kill them. It reinforces the requirement that PCs of a certain level be carrying +X weapons because all the monsters at that level require it.