New Monte Cook article Magic and Mystery

JamesonCourage said:
Please, show me what I'm missing here, because it seems like using the feat to "make me better able to do something" is just as valid as the Perform (Dance) skill. I've listed ways that Craft Arms and Armor makes you better able to do things. This seems inconsistent. What am I missing?

The word you are missing is directly. Perform (dance) applies to your character directly. Whenever you try to dance, that feat or skill selection will help you to do that directly.

At best, with Craft Armor, I'm building something for someone else. How is that benefiting me directly? How is that not something I can do with another feat, say Craft Wonderous, which I can use to benefit other people AND myself directly.

Bribery with magical weapons or armor happens pretty rarely. Probably about once every other level, at most.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought and speaks directly to why I consider this bad design. The player is spending character resources on something that might benefit him rarely. Not directly mind you. It might come up rarely enough to be used to possibly (since there is no guarantee of success) modify the feelings of an NPC.

An NPC whose feelings could be equally modified by probably any other magic item that the wizard could make and still be able to make for himself.

And you think this is good game design?

And, lastly, just for the incredibly overly pedantic:

Also, why are you trying to make me justify mechanics I didn't include in my own SRD-based game? I said that the feat can directly benefit your character through a variety of methods (and named several). You've said, "bribery doesn't crop up often enough for it to be worth it." This doesn't refute my disagreement with you, nor did I attempt to champion the value of the feat. I've said that your made a false analogy by saying it's just as directly beneficial for a Wizard to take Craft Arms and Armor as it is for a Fighter to take a metamagic feat (that is, there's no direct benefit to either). I disagreed with that.

If this is your only bone of contention, then sure, a wizard taking Craft Arms and Armor is probably more useful than a Fighter taking a metamagic feat.

Happy?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The word you are missing is directly. Perform (dance) applies to your character directly. Whenever you try to dance, that feat or skill selection will help you to do that directly.

At best, with Craft Armor, I'm building something for someone else. How is that benefiting me directly? How is that not something I can do with another feat, say Craft Wonderous, which I can use to benefit other people AND myself directly.
Whenever I decide to craft arms or armor, I do it directly. Dancing makes me money, mechanically, and that's it. Of course, Craft Arms and Armor can do that, too, so mechanically they're pretty even.

However, Perform (Dance) can be used to influence NPCs. As can Craft Arms and Armor. How is that not the same? Why is Craft Wondrous even coming up? The question wasn't whether or not Craft Arms and Armor was better than Craft Wondrous for a Wizard, it's whether it was better at directly benefiting the Wizard than a metamagic feat was for a Fighter. I mean, you said:
Hussar said:
What use is the mage getting out of Craft Armor?

What use is the fighter getting out of Silent Spell?

The answer to both of those questions are the same. Now the GROUP might get more use out of Craft Armor, but, that wasn't the point. Game design that forces one player to spend character resources to gain something that does absolutely nothing for that character is poor design.
That's just not true. And I've disputed it. Saying, "it's not good design" or "Craft Wondrous is better" are things I'm not going to argue with you over, because I have no beef with those value judgments.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought and speaks directly to why I consider this bad design. The player is spending character resources on something that might benefit him rarely. Not directly mind you.
Look, the feat didn't meet my design standards (neither did any magic crafting feat). It's not about me defending its design value. It's about whether or not the feat can be used to directly help the wizard. I don't feel like I'm getting a consistent answer on what "direct" means to you in this context. You said:
Hussar said:
Perform (dance) applies to your character directly. Whenever you try to dance, that feat or skill selection will help you to do that directly.
Couldn't this just say:
Craft Arms and Armor applies to your character directly. Whenever you try to craft magical weapons or armor, that feat will help you to do that directly.
Aren't these both the exact same thing? And, if not, is that because of activity? The skill lets you dance, but you can't wear the armor? Well, what if you want a guy who can make magic armor? Now, isn't the activity, "the skill lets you dance, and the feat lets you make magical armor"? Aren't they both just as active at directly helping those goals? And, can't they both aid your character through other methods, like influencing NPCs?

It might come up rarely enough to be used to possibly (since there is no guarantee of success) modify the feelings of an NPC.
Well, Leadership is affected here, too. As is Weapon Focus. Sometimes, swinging a greatsword isn't an option, and sometimes, taking a cohort into an area isn't an option. Feats aren't always helpful. They're conditional. I take it you like feats that apply more often than not. That's fine. However, that's not really the issue, here.

An NPC whose feelings could be equally modified by probably any other magic item that the wizard could make and still be able to make for himself.
Potentially, yep. Though, to be fair, Craft Wondrous can do the following for you as a Wizard:
(1) Save you money or make you money.
(2) Outfit your party.
(3) Outfit your allies.
(4) Make you new allies.
(5) Make you new contacts.
(6) Give you political pull.
(7) Give you items otherwise unattainable (low magic setting, not on the market, etc.).
(8) Make items that you'll put into a magic item slot yourself.

Now, Craft Arms and Armor will do the following for a Wizard:
(1) Save you money or make you money.
(2) Outfit your party.
(3) Outfit your allies.
(4) Make you new allies.
(5) Make you new contacts.
(6) Give you political pull.
(7) Give you items otherwise unattainable (low magic setting, not on the market, etc.).

We're missing one thing: "Make items that you'll put into a magic item slot yourself." If we look at Perform (Dance) (which meets your standards), it can directly help you dance, much like Craft Arms and Armor can directly help you make magic weapons and armor. Anything beyond that, and it helps you in exactly the same way that Craft Arms and Armor does.

And you think this is good game design?
I'm pretty sure I've been over this before, but to answer you: while it didn't live up to my standards for my game, I don't think it's bad design.

And, lastly, just for the incredibly overly pedantic:

If this is your only bone of contention, then sure, a wizard taking Craft Arms and Armor is probably more useful than a Fighter taking a metamagic feat.

Happy?
If I'm pedantic, why even include "probably" in that sentence? Craft Arms and Armor has leaps and bounds more use than a Fighter with a metamagic feat.

So, yeah, that's part of what I disagreed with. Now I just don't understand what you mean by "directly". I can't peg it down. If I knew what that meant, and why it seems inconsistent, I'd be pretty happy with this discussion. As always, play what you like :)
 

JC said:
Now, Craft Arms and Armor will do the following for a Wizard:
(1) Save you money or make you money. - How does this save ME money? Why am I buying magic armor? Make money, I'll buy, but, then again, I can do this MUCH MUCH easier without blowing feats.
(2) Outfit your party. - How does this directly benefit me? Indirectly, sure, I get that. But directly?
(3) Outfit your allies. - ditto
(4) Make you new allies. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
(5) Make you new contacts. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
(6) Give you political pull. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
(7) Give you items otherwise unattainable (low magic setting, not on the market, etc.). - Why would I want these items when I cannot use them?

Look, we have two feats (yes, I know there are more). On one hand, we have a feat that will do EVERYTHING on your list, plus more. Then, we have Craft Arms and Armor feat which your list covers.

If you have two options, and one option is categorically better, then the other option is poorly designed.

And, let's be fair here. I'm not alone in this. There's a reason Pathfinder changed the crafting rules. It's because the 3e crafting rules were not as good as they could be.

A feat which is going to come up "rarely" and then only to benefit everyone else in the party is, IMO, not a whole lot better than a feat that's pretty much 100% useless. I guess "Useful once in a blue moon if the DM is nice enough to throw me a bone" is one school of game design, just not one I subscribe to.
 

Look, we have two feats (yes, I know there are more). On one hand, we have a feat that will do EVERYTHING on your list, plus more. Then, we have Craft Arms and Armor feat which your list covers.

If you have two options, and one option is categorically better, then the other option is poorly designed.
No, it's providing entirely different options to the character. When the Sorcerer took it in my party, it was the first magical crafting feat taken, and he provided three melee characters with magical weapons and armor. He went on to make (with some help) an intelligent item (a sunblade) later on to aid one of the party member's sons (a paladin).

Yes, he might have one more option than Craft Wondrous gave him (since he didn't really need a magical spear), but it's not categorically better, especially if someone else has the Craft Wondrous feat already, which is a real possibility in some parties. I think that you're trashing the feat a bit unfairly, even though I didn't like the feat enough to keep myself.

And, let's be fair here. I'm not alone in this. There's a reason Pathfinder changed the crafting rules. It's because the 3e crafting rules were not as good as they could be.
That's true. I didn't include the crafting system for a reason (Pathfinder revised it, but I eliminated it). Again, my issue wasn't whether or not you liked the feat, but the fact that you said that it's just as directly useful to the Wizard as a metamagic feat was to a Fighter, which is just ludicrous, to me, because of the uses I saw when DMing for a party that had it.

A feat which is going to come up "rarely" and then only to benefit everyone else in the party is, IMO, not a whole lot better than a feat that's pretty much 100% useless. I guess "Useful once in a blue moon if the DM is nice enough to throw me a bone" is one school of game design, just not one I subscribe to.
My players proactively used their crafting abilities, not reactively used to. So, it wasn't based on me throwing them a bone; indeed, they were the ones using the magical items as bartering tools, as upgrades for party members and allies, as contacts for specific NPCs and breaking into markets, and so on.

If that means that it's reliant on the DM "throwing him a bone", then Leadership has the same issues. As powerful as the feat is, it's only useful if having an extra hand is useful, or his skills are useful, or you can take your followers with you. Same goes for lockpicking or disarming traps, casting spells, or having things to fight, though. It just leads back to the social contract and what the party expects to be useful.

But, again, it seems like you think the feat can directly benefit the Wizard in a few different ways, which is what I was debating. It's not about whether or not I think the design is good (even if I think you're undervaluing the feat), it's about whether or not it can directly benefit a Wizard that takes it. I feel like you think it can, but it wouldn't be useful in the campaigns you run or play in. My mileage varied significantly, and it was very useful to the Sorcerer that took it, and he definitely does not regret taking it, as he was able to proactively put the feat to great use in ways that directly benefited him.

If you don't like it, I'm cool with that. I have my issues with it as well. As always, play what you like :)
 

See, I don't really distinguish "useless" from "mostly useless". Anything that comes under either category gets tossed in the "bad design" bin for me.

So, yup, a feat that actually provides no direct benefit for the taker, and only allows me to spend yet more character resources helping other people is a bad feat.

Funny thing is, I like playing support characters, so I often took this feat. But that's the difference. I don't feel that just because I happened to be able to take a bad piece of mechanics and run with it suddenly makes it a good piece of mechanics. I'd much rather judge it on an objective level than simply say, "Well, I made it work, so, it must be good".

A question does occur to me though. Just how much money were you throwing at your groups that they could afford to create magic items just to use as bartering tools? I mean, if the group can actually do this, they are likely pretty far beyond the wealth by level guidelines at any given level. Dropping a couple of thousand gp's on a gift is a pretty major expense for any single digit party.
 

See, I don't really distinguish "useless" from "mostly useless". Anything that comes under either category gets tossed in the "bad design" bin for me.

So, yup, a feat that actually provides no direct benefit for the taker, and only allows me to spend yet more character resources helping other people is a bad feat.

Funny thing is, I like playing support characters, so I often took this feat. But that's the difference. I don't feel that just because I happened to be able to take a bad piece of mechanics and run with it suddenly makes it a good piece of mechanics. I'd much rather judge it on an objective level than simply say, "Well, I made it work, so, it must be good".

Did the feat do what you wanted it to do? I assume so since you often took the feat. So what's wrong with it? It does what want it to do - enable you to make magic weapons and armor. What else do you expect it to do? There's nothing wrong with its design simply because there are some schools of character building-thought that would eschew it, particularly if there are other schools of thought (that apparently include you) that would willingly take it.

A question does occur to me though. Just how much money were you throwing at your groups that they could afford to create magic items just to use as bartering tools? I mean, if the group can actually do this, they are likely pretty far beyond the wealth by level guidelines at any given level. Dropping a couple of thousand gp's on a gift is a pretty major expense for any single digit party.

Or they aren't spending their cash on gear for themselves. They don't have to be above the wealth guidelines to give away some of the treasure they find.
 

I am with Bill on this one. Personally I like having plenty of character building options and i dont consider it bad design to have some feats in the mix that help me achieve my character concept (even if tgey dont appear to benefit me directly).
 

Well, I guess I missed where you questioned all of the things it can do, so I'll address those first.
(1) Save you money or make you money. - How does this save ME money? Why am I buying magic armor? Make money, I'll buy, but, then again, I can do this MUCH MUCH easier without blowing feats.
How does this feat save you money? Okay, let's say you have a Fighter in the party that wants a new +2 sword, and he's willing to pay for it. That's 8,000 gold. You can make it for 4,000 gold. You tell him you'll make it, and you'll sell it to him for 6,000 gold. This saves him 2,000 gold, and you make 2,000 gold. This happens to any suit of armor or weapon for every barbarian, bard, rogue, fighter, cleric, druid, etc. in the party. You end up saving a ton of money for you and your party. If you enchanted a weapon all the way up to +10 (+5 Vorpal, say), you'd make it for 100,000 gold. Over time, the Fighter is gives you 150,000 gold (but it's worth 200,000 gold), saving him and making you 50,000 gold. And that's on one item. In D&D 3.X, where magical items are so often significantly tied to character power, you're going to give a noticeable boost to party power. So, yes, the feat certainly makes you money, and that's if you don't use it for anything besides discounts for party members.

I mean, if you want to be overly pedantic it rarely saves you money, but making it is just as good ;)

(2) Outfit your party. - How does this directly benefit me? Indirectly, sure, I get that. But directly?
I'm not sure how accomplishing your goals isn't directly helping you, but we can call it indirect. I mean, you counted Leadership as direct, but that's a feat that allows an outside force to help you, and this is functioning in the exact same manner.

(3) Outfit your allies. - ditto
Ditto.

(4) Make you new allies. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
Creating a magic suit or armor or sword as a gift to an important NPC is going to go over a lot better than using Quicken Spell is a lot of the time. With Craft Arms and Armor, you can make a business arrangement for crafting things, you can give gifts, you can upgrade gear that others couldn't, and so on. If you handle these interactions well, you can certainly make allies with the right people.

(5) Make you new contacts. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
Again, Quicken Spell isn't really helpful for this. However, if someone hears you're capable of making a +5 weapon, you might very easily be sought out for your skills. Or, more proactively, you can break into the crafting market, and attempt to get well-known for your skills, and the crafting market is obviously going to be flush with rich people, as magic items are expensive.

(6) Give you political pull. - How does this feat do this in a way that other feats will not?
Quicken Spell isn't nearly as good as making a +5 sword for that king. Or making a cursed item, for that matter. Saying you'll make a weapon, but only if the guild leader does X is definitely using it for political pull, and you could potentially do this to people more powerful than you. That cleric king might be level 15 in this campaign, and I might be level 12, but I can make +4 weapons and armor and he can't. I can definitely aid his church, but if he wants my help, he's going to have to help me, too.

(7) Give you items otherwise unattainable (low magic setting, not on the market, etc.). - Why would I want these items when I cannot use them?
For any of the above reasons (where their value is compounded), or to have a chance of using something otherwise out of the hands of the world. For example, the Sorcerer in my campaign used a magical spear, and he would engage with low level orcs and so on using it to conserve spell power (while the high level fighters mopped up). He wasn't great with it (half base attack and a 10 Strength), but he was still getting +7 to attack rolls. Against dangerous opponents he used his spells, of course, but against a low level orc, he wanted to be able to do enough to drop an enemy, and a simple shocking spear can do that for him.

Why would you want them? To fulfill a concept. "In a world where magic weapons are a rare and powerful thing, I'm one of the few that has the power to make them." Not only does this directly help fulfill your concept (be one of the few that can create magical weapons), it directly helps him create magical weapons or armor. This seems like a very direct benefit for him, and at least as direct as Perform (Dance) or Leadership.

See, I don't really distinguish "useless" from "mostly useless". Anything that comes under either category gets tossed in the "bad design" bin for me.

So, yup, a feat that actually provides no direct benefit for the taker, and only allows me to spend yet more character resources helping other people is a bad feat.
I'm still curious how the feat is "near useless" when it can provide all of the above benefits. Even if you discount the benefits as not "direct" for whatever reason, it provides massive benefits within the campaign if used judiciously.

Funny thing is, I like playing support characters, so I often took this feat. But that's the difference. I don't feel that just because I happened to be able to take a bad piece of mechanics and run with it suddenly makes it a good piece of mechanics. I'd much rather judge it on an objective level than simply say, "Well, I made it work, so, it must be good".
I say, "it worked well for my players, so it must not be bad." It wasn't good enough for me, or I would have kept it. However, if it works well for the players, and they use it to great effect, why is it classified as a bad feat?

A question does occur to me though. Just how much money were you throwing at your groups that they could afford to create magic items just to use as bartering tools? I mean, if the group can actually do this, they are likely pretty far beyond the wealth by level guidelines at any given level. Dropping a couple of thousand gp's on a gift is a pretty major expense for any single digit party.
Well, not really. Most of the party's wealth was given to them as gold, gems, and the like, not as magic items. They got sprinkled with magic items here and there, or sometimes got a big haul, but mostly the party was finding valuables outside of magic items. So, they grabbed a couple crafting feats and went to work with no hesitation. They knew it was a low magic setting (it started as a no-magic setting), so they were fine with it (I had player buy-in before the campaign started).

Basically, if you're following the wealth by level guidelines, and you spend 50% on most of the party's items, you can end up saving quite a bit of money, which you can funnel towards various projects. The cleric built a church (and then convinced several nations to pay for more) and invested in trade caravans to support his church, wife, and family. The sorcerer started a magic school, paying for it to be built, looking for students, hiring teachers, and so on. The Fighter ended up becoming a king, but as a Lawful Good character, didn't use the tax money on himself (he might borrow every once in a while, but it was either repaid or the object he purchased belonged to the nation), so political dealings with any number of people were used with him (including hiring old allies or adventurers to deal with problems, which is making new allies or contacts).

Like I said, over the course of over 2,000 real time hours playing this campaign, it lasted almost 70 years in-game, so the party had plenty of opportunities to make allies, bribe people (the Lawful Good fighter preferred to think of it as "coaxing" them), make contacts, and so on.

However, like I said, because of the massive amount of money they were rewarded, and because of the massive amount of money they saved by crafting items, they had a lot of money to throw around at special interest projects. Yes, the Cleric and the Sorcerer ended up one level behind the Fighter, but nobody complained, because everyone felt useful. Not a single one of them felt like they couldn't hold their own or pull their weight.

And, this is in a game where I houseruled experience, and everyone always got the same amount. By RAW, the Cleric and Sorcerer should be getting more XP each session, until they catch up. So, by RAW, they might have ended up in the same level (or close to it), but I didn't use the rules, so that didn't happen. In a standard D&D game there would be even less gap. They certainly would have had even less reservations about making magic items, and would have had more to craft and throw around.
 

JC said:
Like I said, over the course of over 2,000 real time hours playing this campaign, it lasted almost 70 years in-game, so the party had plenty of opportunities to make allies, bribe people (the Lawful Good fighter preferred to think of it as "coaxing" them), make contacts, and so on.

Holy crap! O.O Now THAT'S impressive. Well done you sir.

To jump over to the fence for a second here. It's not really that hard to redeem these very specific, limited use feats. Judicious application of the retraining rules works fine (particularly if you aren't really strict on exactly when characters can retrain - you can retrain once per level, but, not necessarily at level up) so that any limited use feat can be used when it's needed and then shelved when its not.

That way a very limited resource like feats comes a somewhat less limited resource and the cost/benefit ratio is a lot healthier. ((IMO at least)).

Another solution is Action Points. You can spend action points to gain access to feats. Now, by RAW, this is only good in combat because it only lasts until your next turn. But, if you ignore that bit and simply let the characters spend action points to gain access to limited use feats, again, the cost/benefit ratio goes WAY up. Action Points aren't that common (5+1/2 level) and only recharge on level up, so, it works a lot like retraining.

My issue here is that the cost/benefit ratio just isn't good enough. If you have Option A and Option B and Option B gives you everything Option A gives you plus more, then Option B is always the option a rational person will take. Game mechanics that are based on irrational operators are bad mechanics, again, IMO.
 

Holy crap! O.O Now THAT'S impressive. Well done you sir.

To jump over to the fence for a second here. It's not really that hard to redeem these very specific, limited use feats. Judicious application of the retraining rules works fine (particularly if you aren't really strict on exactly when characters can retrain - you can retrain once per level, but, not necessarily at level up) so that any limited use feat can be used when it's needed and then shelved when its not.

That way a very limited resource like feats comes a somewhat less limited resource and the cost/benefit ratio is a lot healthier. ((IMO at least)).
Sorry for the delay, played game yesterday and just checked in today. Thanks for the compliment, but it's not like we had some goal in mind or anything. Just a good group of friends (all from high school or before) playing a game together :)

As far as the retraining rules go, we never used them, but I like the concept used within a certain context. For example, I created a new skill named Martial Prowess that, among other thing, lets you grab "virtual feats". Virtual feats can be dropped as a free action and picked up as a standard action (or move action with a feat). Virtual feats are limited to combat feats, and last until you sleep. So, each day, a warrior can grab 2-5 virtual feats (depending on how high the skill is), and swap them out as necessary (representing the massive training they've done in various fields). It really powered up melee when I implemented it, and the fact that magic is also reigned it helped.

So, with a good implementation, I like retraining rules. It adds a lot to the game, sometimes, both mechanically and narratively.

Another solution is Action Points. You can spend action points to gain access to feats. Now, by RAW, this is only good in combat because it only lasts until your next turn. But, if you ignore that bit and simply let the characters spend action points to gain access to limited use feats, again, the cost/benefit ratio goes WAY up. Action Points aren't that common (5+1/2 level) and only recharge on level up, so, it works a lot like retraining.

My issue here is that the cost/benefit ratio just isn't good enough. If you have Option A and Option B and Option B gives you everything Option A gives you plus more, then Option B is always the option a rational person will take. Game mechanics that are based on irrational operators are bad mechanics, again, IMO.
Yeah, I understand why you don't like Craft Armor for a Wizard over Craft Wondrous. I think both feats have the potential to be really useful, but Craft Wondrous is probably better for a Wizard if taken in a vacuum. So, I do get the design issue you have.

From a narrative standpoint, I like the idea of magicians making magical items, including weapons, so I'd rather not see most mundane characters doing it. However, in my system, I don't require a feat to make them, I just leave it to people with spell-like abilities and spells. I can definitely see where mechanically it's nice to have a dwarf warrior who physically his weapons and makes them magical, though. That could potentially be a contingent spell-like ability in my system ("When I finish crafting armor, it's permanently enchanted" type thing).

At any rate, I do get where you're coming from, and your objections. Thanks for the discussion. As always, play what you like :)
 

Remove ads

Top