New Multi-classing variant
- Thread starter Coredump
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JRRNeiklot
First Post
the Jester said:
It's not quite as bad as you've got it above, but it's still a bit much.
He said nothing stacks, so it's more like this:
BAB- Bob, +5; Tim, +6.
Base Fort- Bob, +4; Tim, +5.
Base Ref- Bob, +1; Tim, +2.
Base Will- Bob, +4; Tim, +2.
Spells- Bob, fireball and dispel magic; Tim, none.
Feats- Bob, 7 (1 at 1st level, 1 at 3rd level, 3 bonus fighter, 2 bonus wizard);
Tim, 7 (1 at 1st, 3rd and 6th, 4 bonus fighter).
Skill Points- Bob, 5x (int bonus + 2); Tim, 8x (int bonus +2).
the Jester
Legend
JRRNeiklot said:
Oh, he actually said that none of the extras stack- I presume a multiclassed fighter would still get his BAB bonus just as a wizard still gets his spells. If not, this is even screwier, because some classes get their basic goodies and others don't. (...I guess rogues are already getting nailed on the skill points, though.)
All in all, I see tons of problems and no real bennies to this system. On the other hand, if it makes the game more fun, hey go crazy.
Sorry, this got revived and I didn't notice right away. Let me try and respond to some of the concerns.
Well, we all realize that CR is still 'relative'. Given a certain party make-up, and certain terrain, you can pick 3 encounters with the same CR, and one will be easy, one medium, and one deadly. *ALL* encounters need to be somewhat watched for appropiateness.
As for your questions, a 7/5/5 would be about as powerful as a 17th level character;but with fewer HP, and lower skills, and less magic. So, like anything else in D&D, you estimate it; probably around 14ish. With the above mentioned variability, it shouldn't be *that* big of a deal. Now, he may be hanging out with 10th level characters (about same XP), but you figure out the party level that way. NOTE: since it is easier to multiclass, people may also feel less 'forced' to min/max the choices; and may lead to combinations you would not get if you had to pay 'full price'.
As for the 5/5, it depends. His 'CR' is probably about 8, but his level for skills, HP, spell effects, fear,etc is only 5. (For instance, a ftr/wiz 4/4 would still be susceptible to Sleep spells.)
It takes 10K to be 5th level, so the other 5K could be used for two levels of Wiz. (almost 3 -needs 1K more)
So try the comparison again, with a ftr 6 and a ftr/wiz 5/2. The second one is still more powerful, but not by as much
Remember, the ftr 6 will have 1D10-Conbonus more HP, skills could be at 9 instead of 8, and TWO extra feats (for 6th level and fighter bonus) Is also one step closer to the ability bonus at level 8
The dual gets to cast a couple of 1st level spells, and gets some extra skill points. Also gets two defined feats.
As for stacking, as of now, almost everything stacks, except for HP and levels. This is the first time trying this, and some changes will likely occur. I already have to make some decisions. I was Rog1, and was going to go up a level, Do I go Rng1? or Rog2? I really wanted the benefits from rng1, but I really couldn't afford to gain no HP this level (most likely).
Now, is Rng 1 going to be enough to lure me from gaining HP and another D6 in SA?
Where I think this will really break is in the lvl10-lvl14 area, where you can start picking up 4-5 levels in something instead of one level in your main.
I am powergaming this a bit, but mostly because the other characters are pretty weak and we need someone that can deal some decent damage. While I think the tweak is not balanced, I really don't see the impending doom that everyone else is forcasting. It will be interesting to see how this turns out in a few more levels.
.
Well, we all realize that CR is still 'relative'. Given a certain party make-up, and certain terrain, you can pick 3 encounters with the same CR, and one will be easy, one medium, and one deadly. *ALL* encounters need to be somewhat watched for appropiateness.
As for your questions, a 7/5/5 would be about as powerful as a 17th level character;but with fewer HP, and lower skills, and less magic. So, like anything else in D&D, you estimate it; probably around 14ish. With the above mentioned variability, it shouldn't be *that* big of a deal. Now, he may be hanging out with 10th level characters (about same XP), but you figure out the party level that way. NOTE: since it is easier to multiclass, people may also feel less 'forced' to min/max the choices; and may lead to combinations you would not get if you had to pay 'full price'.
I do not mean to sound flippant, but is 3E/D20 the only role playing game you have experience with? You seem very nervous with DM flexibility. If you want a 'rule of thumb' it seems like adding 2/3 of the other levels would give a decent approximation. Since I believe this will only be used for characters, the problems for 'monsters' isn't really a problem. Plus, we tend to not play with the FR tendency of Star Wars races syndrome.
As for the 5/5, it depends. His 'CR' is probably about 8, but his level for skills, HP, spell effects, fear,etc is only 5. (For instance, a ftr/wiz 4/4 would still be susceptible to Sleep spells.)
huh? It takes 15,000XP to be a 6th level fighter
It takes 10K to be 5th level, so the other 5K could be used for two levels of Wiz. (almost 3 -needs 1K more)
So try the comparison again, with a ftr 6 and a ftr/wiz 5/2. The second one is still more powerful, but not by as much
Remember, the ftr 6 will have 1D10-Conbonus more HP, skills could be at 9 instead of 8, and TWO extra feats (for 6th level and fighter bonus) Is also one step closer to the ability bonus at level 8
The dual gets to cast a couple of 1st level spells, and gets some extra skill points. Also gets two defined feats.
As for stacking, as of now, almost everything stacks, except for HP and levels. This is the first time trying this, and some changes will likely occur. I already have to make some decisions. I was Rog1, and was going to go up a level, Do I go Rng1? or Rog2? I really wanted the benefits from rng1, but I really couldn't afford to gain no HP this level (most likely).
Now, is Rng 1 going to be enough to lure me from gaining HP and another D6 in SA?
Where I think this will really break is in the lvl10-lvl14 area, where you can start picking up 4-5 levels in something instead of one level in your main.
I am powergaming this a bit, but mostly because the other characters are pretty weak and we need someone that can deal some decent damage. While I think the tweak is not balanced, I really don't see the impending doom that everyone else is forcasting. It will be interesting to see how this turns out in a few more levels.
.
Renfield
Explorer
Hmmm... it does sound everly complicated. I'd say if your DM wanted to play with the multiclassing bit he should try by perhaps using the second edition thing. Doesn't really unbalance the game at all (IMHO) as the character tends to be a little behind but not too much behind all the other characters. I'm kind of glad they made a sort of multiclass prestige class in 3.5 with the mystic theurge (I think it was) and a few others that was essentially a multiclassed cleric/mage or cleric/sorcerer.
FrankTrollman
First Post
I do. In the proposed system a Ranger who takes some levels of wizard is decidedly more powerful than a wizard who takes some levels of Ranger. And the XP cost is exactly the same.
Any DM who would introduce such a provably broken mechanic has such an obviously loose grasp of the rules and relative power levels that I give the entire campaign about three weeks before the DM accidentally kills the entire party because he thought a CR 10 dragon would make a good fight for a 10,000 XP party or some other similar nonsense.
-Frank
Tilla the Hun (work)
First Post
FrankTrollman said:
Hmmm.... You do realize that with no house rule for multi classing, the ranger who takes some levels of wizard IS more powerful than the wizard who takes an equal number of levels of Ranger??
Multi-classing KILLS magic users. Long discussion repeated many times. WotC themselves admitted to this on their boards.
If it's broken for magic users - it's broken period. While I realize that may make me the odd one out on this thread, it's none the less true.
Without the use of PrC's no multi-classed character of reasonable proportions can compare to a straight classed character. Mixing the classes amongst the fighter types produce some closer matches, but attempting to mix in any of the magic users breaks it all over the place.
And no, I'm not talking about things like 19wiz/1sorc.
That said - I've seen this particular system played out. It does have problems - especially with any kind of PG"ing players, and especially in the mid-level power ranges.
I sit in with a local 'council', if you will, of GM's and two of them tried this for a fair amount of time. In the end, they modified the system and produced something that is appearing to work, although it is similar in nature. I think it had something to do with taking the difference in XP in the levels, and that's how much you need to level... I'll find out and be back.
FrankTrollman
First Post
True. But a Wizard 3/ Ranger 3 - while screwed - is precisely the same amount screwed as a Ranger 3/ Wizard 3 (minus the 1st level bonuses, which are a completely different problem).
The propsed system actually makes the two more different - and by extension less balanced with respect to each other.
Balancing spellcaster multiclasses is extremely difficult, and requires a systemic change in the way things are currently handled. But the proposed system doesn't even come close to addressing that, and is instead just 10 pounds of crazy in a five pound bag.
If you actually wanted to balance multiclassed spellcasters, you'd have to free them from the following shackles:
1> Class Level Dependent Save DCs. The wizard who multiclasses doesn't get his highest level of spell, and by extension, his save DCs are too low. The multiclassed wizard may as well not show up.
2> Class Level Dependent Spell Effects. If the wizard multiclasses, he doesn't do more fireball damage - which means that his spells aren't damaging relative to the Challenge that his party encounters on a daily basis and he may as well not show up for work.
3> Class Level Dependent Spell Penetration. High level monsters have SR. If you are multiclassed, you simply cannot beat the SR of creatures, your spells don't work and you might as well not show up for work.
---
If you set those three things to character level - in the same way that skill rank maximums are - this works out a lot better.
So if Acid Orb does 1d6 per character level, and the base save DCs of a wizard are 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Int Bonus, and the Spell Penetration roll is d20 + character level - then the multiclassed Wizard is vaguely viable. It also has the advantage of unifying the rules for Spell DC and Supernatural Ability DC.
It still doesn't get past the basic fact that a 20th level character who is casting Hold Monster just doesn't hold a candle to a 20th level character casting Mass Hold Monster - even if he does inspire the same save DCs and pentrate SR the same way. Although hopefully in 10 levels he'll be multiclassed into some other class that gives some kind of benefit that in some way makes up for it.
-Frank
And how is that any different in the proposed system??
I should make one clarification. Lets say you are a Rog6/Ftr3. For HPs you rolled (as a rogue) 6,4,4,5,6,2. If you take another level of Ftr, you can choose to re-roll your '4th' level HPs. So you can erase the 5 from the Rogue, and roll a D10 and see what happens. Thus it doesn't matter whether you go Rogue/ftr or ftr/rog as far as HP's.
Well, don't go making big bets on your predictive abilities. We have already played 3 weeks, for about 10 hrs each, and are still alive. (sometimes barely, but that is part of the fun)
If you are a DM that just assumes that all CR ratings are etched in stone, then you may have difficulty, but most DM's realize that the CR ratings are a guide, not a gospel.
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