New Multiclass Concept: Same powers, swap class abilities

Stalker0

Legend
Generally when I think of multi classing, I think of giving up something in one class to gain something in another. This is what the 4e system currently lacks, you are basically just spending feats to get new powers, and you never get enough blend to fit many archetypes.

So here's my idea. Take the core class, and swap out the class abilities with that of another class.

Here's how you do it:

1) Start with a primary class. At 1st level, you can choose to multi class.
2) You keep the saves, weapon/armor proficiencies, hit points, and powers of the original class.
3) Choose a new class. You gain the skills and class abilities of the new class.
4) You must choose which class you count as for purposes of feat prereqs and paragon paths. Once chosen, you cannot change this.
5) You can now take the multiclass feats to pick up powers in your new class.

Special Notes:
1) If your primary class can use implements, you do not lose them.
2) If your primary class has a build option (for example the Rogue's Artful Dodger) you still count as that build option for the purpose of powers and feats you take. You simply don't gain the class benefit of that option.
3) If you pick up the warlock's class abilities, you do not gain a new at-will from the pact you choose.
4) In this version, the wizard's spellbook could apply to any power type, not just arcane spells. Further, arcane implement mastery applies to any power that uses an implement, not just wizard spells.

Let's do some examples:

1) A fighter decides he wants to be a bit more tactical and leaderish. He decides to multiclass into warlord, becoming a "Fighter Lord". He keeps his hitpoints, armor, and weapon type, and his +2 to fort saves. He gives up his combat challenge and superiority and most importantly, his +1 to attack rolls with his weapon. In return he gains the warlord's +2 init aura, inspiring word, warlord skills, and chooses to become a tactical warlord, gaining the bonus to attack rolls for allies who spend action points. He still uses fighter powers. For feats and paragon paths, he decides to become a warlord, and picks up the tactical warlord feat that allows him to add his int to damage from attacks that use action points.

The character has lost the main defender role of the fighter, and especially the +1 to attack rolls. In exchange, he can now heal and aid his allies on the battlefield somewhat, though he still mainly uses the hard hitting fighter powers as his main stay.

2) An artful dodger rogue decides to multi class into warlock for a different kind of striker. He gives up the artful dodger's charisma bonus to AC against OA (however he is still considered an artful dodger for purposes of feats and powers). He also loses the rogue's sneak attack, weapon talent, and first strike abilities along with the rogue's good skills. In return he gains the warlock's curse, shadow walk, prime shot, warlock skills, and the pact ability. He does NOT gain the pact ability's at will though. He decides to stay with rogue for the purpose of feats and paragon paths.

We now have a new hybrid of striker, one that combines the stealth of rogue powers with the cursing of the warlock.

3) A cleric decides to multiclass into wizard. The cleric gives up his channel divinity, healing lore, healing word, ritual casting ability. He gains the wizard's cantrips, ritual casting, arcane implement mastery, and spell books. The cleric now uses a prayer book, and can decide dailies and utility powers as a wizard can. He also takes the orb as his mastery, letting him use his impressive wisdom. Also, the cleric can use holy symbols or the new implements of the wizard.

We now have a cleric that has given up his hardcore healing for a wider variety of rituals and magical effects. He can still heal somewhat with his cleric powers, but not as well...though he also gains impressive use of the orb power with the cleric's already high wisdom.

4) A wizard multiclasses into fighter. He gives up the spellbook, cantrips, arcane implement and ritual casting. He gains the fighter's ability to mark with his attacks, and the +1 to attack with weapons. The wizard can still use implements, he just doesn't get any extra bonus for his arcane implement mastery anymore.

The wizard has become a battlemage. He has given up a lot of the wizard's magical power, but gained the impressive ability to mark large numbers of targets at range.


Final Thought: A fighter with a spell book?

Obviously this idea begs the question, how do you describe a fighter having a spell book? The answer is...anyway you like. Perhaps the figher is a martial student, one who learns a variety of secret techniques through ancient manuals and personal accounts of sword masters. While he doesn't have the natural ability of many fighters (no +1 to attacks for example) he gains a wider breath of attacks (ability to choose dailies and utilities each day).
 

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I'm not sure how I feel about this system. On one hand, it seems very elegant and balanced, if not a bit underpowered at low levels. On the other hand, it basically eliminates class abilities; instead, every character can pick whichever set of class abilities they want.

You may want to specify that you choose any build choices in your primary class as well. I'm not sure it's entirely fair that you get to keep your primary class's build choice, as it allows you to you to benefit from more than one with regards to powers.
 

This is what the 4e system currently lacks, you are basically just spending feats to get new powers, and you never get enough blend to fit many archetypes.

I've yet to see a strong character concept that you can't build with the current rules.

fighter/warlord works fine as is.

one that combines the stealth of rogue powers with the cursing of the warlock.

warlock/rogue could pull that off fine.


and tampering with the system can lead to it breaking

though he also gains impressive use of the orb power with the cleric's already high wisdom.

That combo is fine, but I'd bet something will break sooner or latter.
 



Alright, I'm going to try hard to break it. I'll be honest, I don't like how this allows you to freely mix and match class abilities :) so there's some ulterior motive ;). Here we go!

Paladin (Warrior), compare it to a straight Warrior. No need to pump Charisma to make your Divine Challenge tick, just pump Strength and Wisdom. You gain plate armor, an extra healing surge, and an extra net +1 defense. You use the Paladin's Strength and Wisdom powers rather than the Fighter's, but it should be mostly a wash (you can still mark, so powers like Holy Strike still function 100%). I think this is better than a straight Warrior.

Ranger (Warlock), compare to a straight Archer-type Ranger. You lose Defensive Mobility. You gain a better version of Hunter's Quarry (can Curse multiple targets, plus the Curse benefit) and Shadow Walk. However, you do lose out on paragon paths :(, but other than skills, this is strictly superior levels 1-10.

Ranger (Rogue), compare to a straight TWF Ranger. You lose an average of 3 damage per attack with your off-hand and 1 damage with your main hand with rapier + dagger instead of bastard swords, but you gain +1 attack with your off-hand (or you can switch +1 attack for +1 damage with a short sword). You lose toughness. On the other hand, you switch Hunter's Quarry with Sneak Attack and Brutal Scoundrel, which probably comes out in your favor.


I think the Paladin (Warrior) case is definitely better than a straight Warrior. I hope one example is enough! The other cases do give up some things, but overall seem to be good. The main problem is as classes are added, the potential for problematic combinations increases.
 

Here is a nice easy broken combo using this:

Rogue who multiclasses as fighter. Rogue Powers + Fighter Class Features= gross. Attack a foe with the rogue's at-will Riposte & mark him. Free attack on him if he attacks you. Free attack on him if he attacks someone else (at -2 to hit). Free attack on him if he shifts away. Free attack with +2 to hit if he moves away. The only way you don't get a free attack on him is if he sits there and does NOTHING on his turn!

Note, since you don't have the Rogue class features (only powers) you don't care about needing to use a light blade. So you are doing this with a maul! Don't forget that you are a dwarf, gettting a +2 damage bonus, and took the Hammer Rythm feat to do damage even if you miss... Automatic damage TWICE every round...
 

Paladin (Warrior), compare it to a straight Warrior. No need to pump Charisma to make your Divine Challenge tick, just pump Strength and Wisdom. You gain plate armor, an extra healing surge, and an extra net +1 defense.

You don't get the armor proficiencies, saves, and healing surges of the new class. A fighter would still have scale, would still have his +2 to fort defense, and would still have his normal healing surges.

Rogue Powers + Fighter Class Features= gross. Attack a foe with the rogue's at-will Riposte & mark him. Free attack on him if he attacks you. Free attack on him if he attacks someone else (at -2 to hit). Free attack on him if he shifts away. Free attack with +2 to hit if he moves away. The only way you don't get a free attack on him is if he sits there and does NOTHING on his turn!

Note, since you don't have the Rogue class features (only powers) you don't care about needing to use a light blade. So you are doing this with a maul! Don't forget that you are a dwarf, gettting a +2 damage bonus, and took the Hammer Rythm feat to do damage even if you miss... Automatic damage TWICE every round...

In order to use riposte strike you have to wield a light blade, so no special extra hammer rhythum dwarf damage there. However, the rest of what you say is true. This is the best case for not using this house rule I've seen so far.
 
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You don't get the armor proficiencies, saves, and healing surges of the new class. A fighter would still have scale, would still have his +2 to fort defense, and would still have his normal healing surges.

Zelc was saying a Paladin multiclassed into a Fighter, not Fighter into Paladin.

Still, I think that this houserule is overpowered, as it allows any set of features to be used with any set of powers (and the problem will only get worse as time goes on...).

Thanks,
Hdier
 

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