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D&D 5E New Players same level as Current Players?

WHat level should newbies start at?

  • Same level as the current players, b/c that's fair!

    Votes: 88 83.0%
  • Start'em at 1st, the current players had to start there!

    Votes: 12 11.3%
  • Start them at first, but give them XP bonus to catch up!

    Votes: 6 5.7%

  • Poll closed .

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
See, I just don't understand this mentality, especially from the group that keeps trying to tell us that D&D is about more than combat. Reward them for doing nothing... You mean to tell me the player didn't come to those sessions and role play with everyone else? That they didn't take part in the story, just like everyone else, input their own ideas, just like everyone else?
Sadly, sometimes this is true.

How can it be a problem to level a character up alongside his fellow companions for being cautious and avoiding the frontline? Can't players make a character that contributes to the other pillars of play, and therefore perhaps less in the combat pillar? You yourself make it sound like combat contribution is all that matters. That risking your characters life in combat is the only way to earn those levels.
Fair question. If a character contributes to the other pillars of play that's great, and rewards (and xp) should follow.

My beef is with those characters (and the players who run them) who avoid the front line or other risks and by doing so expose other characters to greater risk. I've been on the wrong end of this (and died for it) just a few too many times.

How can you accuse other posters of thinking about the game as all combat when you start stating that some characters don't earn their levels because they don't take risks. I mean, I'm assuming most of the characters who die in your games are deaths from combat and not an over abundance of traps or something.
Front-line combat has the obvious risks. Exploration has risks: traps, capture, natural hazards, etc. Diplomacy has risks: poison, assassination, charm-domination, and so on. All of these can, if not kill you outright, certainly make your day miserable. And if a character doesn't want to take its chances in the front line then I'd sure like to see it getting out there in one or two of the other pillars.

A character who stands out of the front line, does little to no exploring, and shuts up when the diplomacy starts should not get levels at the same rate as those characters who do take those risks.

There's no issue with levelling up the whole party at milestones, unless you're married to the playstyle that characters need to earn those levels through sweat and blood and life and death situations. AKA combat is the way to earn the right to be a higher level, and how dare a character level up without taking an axe to the face.

For a side of the argument that says combat isn't everything, that seems a really odd view to take in a game about creating fun and challenging stories with friends.
OK, here's an example from the last session I ran:

It's a big party - 11 characters at the moment, with two more (along with a PC couple's baby) captured. For some time now the party have been planning a scry-buff-teleport (except without the "scry" part as doing so would alert the enemy) rescue mission to either get the prisoners back or die trying. How it shook down:

4 of the characters did a bit of the planning then stayed home, contributing nothing else.
1 of the characters went part-way with the away team and did some diplomacy on their behalf,
2 of the characters went part-way with the away team, did some diplomacy on their behalf, and pre-cast a bunch of buff spells.
4 of the characters were the actual mission team, who went in to a mostly-unknown situation and at considerable risk successfully rescued all three captives without taking any casualties.

So how do the xp break down here? To me, the vast majority would go to the mission team who actually took the risks; some would go to the three who helped out but stayed behind, and very little would go to the four who only helped with the pre-planning. Why? Because the 7 who were not in the mission team had, in the end, nothing to lose*. Four of them took no risk at all, and the only risk faced by the other three was what sort of mood a particular known-to-them mage might be in when they all showed up at his guild (this was the mission's jumping-off point).

Giving the stay-at-homes equal xp as the mission team would only tell me, were I in that party as a player, to keep my character's hand down when it came to volunteering for the next one! :)

* - you could say they stood to lose some friends if the mission failed, and if they tried something risky to get them back the xp rewards would again favour those who went after it over those who stayed home.

Lan-"in another thread on this subject the line 'coat-tail riders and passenger joes' came up; that song has now been written and recorded, I'll post a link to it if it ever gets online"-efan
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well, I believe he was pretty clearly saying that the pitfall of milestone levelling is that the characters who don't contribute "by taking risks" benefit from the 'reward' of XP when they shouldn't.
Pretty much, yep; mostly from...

If he meant as you believe, then hell, I agree. If you have a bump on the log player who needs mechanical incentive to even bother role playing or taking part during your session
These, along with somewhat more engaged players intentionally playing bump-on-a-log characters; even more aggravating.

Withholding XP from them because they didn't 'earn' it seems like a pretty antagonistic and frankly dick move for a DM to make. They should have talked to the player well before they felt the need to punish them for their behaviour in game.
I don't see it as a dick move in the slightest, when put in the context of xp being something a character gets for doing things as opposed to doing nothing; and with this made clear going in.

Then there's the players whose very playstyle consists of making sure that if there's deaths and bad things to be endured it's someone else's character who endures them. An example might be as simple as opening a door that might have a trap to it...these players will sit on their hands and wait even if their character is the one best-suited for the job, knowing full well that someone else at the table (sometimes but not always me) will eventually get bored and open the bloody thing. And if there is a trap the deliberate procrastinator survives while the character who actually got on with it dies. Holding them to account (in-character or out) then or later usually gets only a response of "Well *I'm* not taking the risk!", leading to a stalemate. And a very boring game if getting through that door is what has to happen next.

At least giving xp to the risk-takers tries to mitigate this a little.

Lan-"everything dies, baby, that's a fact; and everything that dies someday comes back - B Springsteen"-efan
 

Tectuktitlay

Explorer
However, and to me just about as important, levels are also a measure (one of many) of the PCs compared to each other.
But when they're a metric comparing PCs they also become a reward...again, one of many as you so well point out...

And that's fine! I've done it both ways, and when a player of course it's usually in a campaign where XP is a reward. Except for those players who found they really liked the levels-are-not-a-reward system. When levels are strictly a metric for the power level of the party (and note: explicitly NOT a measure of the PCs compared to one another; that is inherently eliminated as part of the equation), and all characters automatically are they same level at every point of the campaign, how is it a reward? I ask that in all seriousness. If it is inherent to the system that it will be equivalent for all characters in a campaign at every stage of the game, how is it a reward?

re·ward
rəˈwôrd/
noun
1. a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.
verb
1. make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements.

It is not given to any of the characters as recognition of their service, efforts, or achievements. It really isn't. They don't all get rewarded a level for facing down X, Y, or Z successfully. Sometimes it's arbitrary, usually it's simply on an in-game timer I am keeping track of, no matter what happens any given session. And my players understand this, and know that they will just level from time to time as a way of advancing the timeline in-game. For some games, this might mean they advance a level every session, because we know we have a limited time to play together. Sometimes this means long stretches of not gaining any levels, because what's happening over the course of a half-dozen to a dozen sessions really only took up a few days within the game world. Completely depends on the game.

But they are not being rewarded for their actions with levels. Period.

However, whether combat or not I want to recognize the characters who participate rather than stand back or stay at the inn. That's where xp come in.

All good, but nothing at all says xp can't go on top of all that. The characters involved in the diplomacy get xp for it; the ones who rifled the wizard's tower get xp for that, and those who helped knock down the griffins get xp for that. This allows for a greater reward for a character that was involved with all three activities than in just one, or none.

Well...actually, yes something can say XP can't go on top of that: me, as the DM, eliminating that as a rule. ;) MOST campaigns will use XP and levels upon reaching certain amounts of XP as part of the reward system, and I am perfectly capable and content to participate. But when I run a game, I simply do not use that system for rewards. And again, it might be that you not only aren't getting rewards for those griffons (beyond their corpses), you may have screwed up the local ecology pretty significantly and ticked off a local druid. Especially if you kill random groups of animals like that.

Side note regarding your wizard's tower example: in our games its a long-standing player-driven tradition that all treasure and booty is divided equally, meaning it's quite rare that a DM can use acquired treasure as a reward mechanism like you suggest here.

And that's fine. But not how it's done in my campaigns, and I certainly don't require players divvy up their cash and booty evenly. On the contrary, it's pretty much whoever benefits most likely takes a specific item, and cash is either pooled per the characters' discretion, or kept for individual rewards. A rogue that successfully sneaks off and finds some stuff is under no obligation to divulge that, and in many a piece of fiction that is the case. A wizard gaining a tower, or gaining a rather incredibly expensive non-magical item like a telescope simply gets it. The other characters will not necessarily be compensated equally in terms of monetary items if it doesn't make sense to do so. But at the same time, being knighted? Gaining a license to kill for the Crown? Those are VERY valuable to have as well. A character will gain significant benefit from such a boon that might very well be "worth" more than a tower, stocked lab, and expensive telescope combined.

So what do you do with all the things that can change an individual character's level on the fly? For example: I have level-draining undead in my game. Decks of many things and the like can give or remove a pile of xp on the spot. Wish spells, rare though they may be, can give or take levels if done right.

Oh, that's easy. I don't use those mechanics. One of the least favorite mechanics in any edition of the game, so readily tossed out. And yes, that includes that particular effect from a Deck of Many Things.

Also, how do you handle characters who die, stay dead for an adventure, then come back? Do they get equal xp or levels for being dead? (if yes, this seems kind of ludicrous)

Well, resurrection is generally extraordinarily rare, and will only happen soon after death. By the time the party has leveled up, it is likely too bring a dead ally back to life. Resurrection magic in particular is one of, if not the rarest form of magic ever performed in one of my campaigns. The very existence of such magic has implications on the economy and the world that are too far reaching to ignore, unless it is specifically tied in to the world as part of the lore. If enough resources can buy you respite from death, what is to stop the nobility and monarchy from taking many more risks, and being raised from the dead? What threat is assassination in such a world? Now, as I said, some game worlds having the nobility have such control over life and death was used on purpose, to exemplify their stranglehold on every aspect of society. The lower classes feared them all the more, because they truly could just come back from the dead, while all the piss-poor members of the other classes stayed dead when their time came.

But generally? Characters don't GET resurrected, unless there is an extraordinary reason to do so. That is not simply a class of spells divine classes happen to have. Most of the "resurrection" type spells instead bring back a recently slain ally, as in slain in this last battle. Bringing them back from the brink of death, not actually raising them from the dead.

And I don't find it all that ludicrous for them to learn from their experience. They were just in the afterlife, in a world where there is actual evidence of there BEING an afterlife. They weren't simply floating in oblivion, they were in the Fields of Elysium, the were traversing the River Styx when they were called back to the mortal world, they were drinking in the Halls of Valhalla, or whatnot. As they say, death is the ultimate experience. Why wouldn't they come back changed, understand more of the secrets of the universe, etc? Not all that ludicrous.

One can assume that anyone else in the game world who is above 1st level is already busy doing other things... :)

That said, I don't subscribe to full-on ES@1; but I do insist that new or replacement characters* come in either a level or two below the party average, or a level below the lowest, or at a floor level, depending on the campaign. There's lots of other levelled entities in the game world and lots of ways to gain levels other than adventuring; adventuring just happens to be by far the fastest way. But when Kallie the Thief dies and the party go looking for a replacement it's almost certain the replacement will be lower level than Kallie was.

* - unless it is a player's FIRST character in that campaign, in which case it comes in at the party average.

Yes, I agree there's holes with strict ES@1 which is why I don't do it; though with that said it's trivially easy to dream up a logical in-game rationale for it if desired, which might go:

The only true free-agent adventurers are those fresh out of their 1st-level training. To adventure in the field, these characters must first sign on to an Adventuring Company (of which the PCs-as-a-whole are one), and once signed their allegiance may never change on pain of death; this is strictly enforced by the Companies themselves to prevent recruiting wars, defections, and what the modern business world calls headhunting. Thus all experienced adventurers are signed to a Company, and if your Company finds itself shorthanded its only recourse is to recruit raw 1st-level free agents. For taxation purposes, the King's agents are constantly kept advised of the membership of each Company.

While the use of Companies like that seems common enough among gaming circles, I actually find the idea of adventurers only being able to exist under such formally contractual circumstances to be rather...extraordinarily unlikely. It's one thing to sign a contract with one another (see: The Hobbit, many mercenary companies, etc), or be sanctioned by a specific group of powerful beings as representatives of all the lands of the world (see: The Fellowship). It's another altogether to require that any old group of people who get into some sort of adventure together be required to sign on to a formal, contractually obligated company in service of...? One country? All the kingdoms? A neutral group that has effectively the power of a multinational mega-corporation, with contractual power spread across nations that makes the most powerful of merchant houses pale in comparison?

I think of every fantasy novel, sci-fi novel, etc, I've read, and think what their adventure would actually be like if they had to formally join a company, and actually have their activities sanctioned, tracked, directed, etc, in such a manner. It's just incredibly unlikely. And with any set of stipulations even a fraction of, "pain of death" for breaking from the company? Changing allegiances? Yeah, no thanks. In my worlds there aren't actually "adventurers". There is never some sort of class of people out and about who are called "adventurers". While out of character they might be called adventurers, that term would rarely if ever be tossed around by people within the game world itself. Rather like most fighters actually wouldn't be called a fighter. A knight, a soldier, a mercenary, a bounty hunter, a warrior, etc? Sure. A fighter? Highly unlikely. Just not my cup of tea.

To think that up took as long as it did to type it; it's not perfect, but more thought might give better ideas.

And I thank you for it. I understand the general perspective, and appreciate it. I have certainly been on both sides of the table and participated in similar, and am not at all opposed to many different playstyles.
 

Pvt. Winslow

Explorer
Pretty much, yep; mostly from...

These, along with somewhat more engaged players intentionally playing bump-on-a-log characters; even more aggravating.

I don't see it as a dick move in the slightest, when put in the context of xp being something a character gets for doing things as opposed to doing nothing; and with this made clear going in.

Then there's the players whose very playstyle consists of making sure that if there's deaths and bad things to be endured it's someone else's character who endures them. An example might be as simple as opening a door that might have a trap to it...these players will sit on their hands and wait even if their character is the one best-suited for the job, knowing full well that someone else at the table (sometimes but not always me) will eventually get bored and open the bloody thing. And if there is a trap the deliberate procrastinator survives while the character who actually got on with it dies. Holding them to account (in-character or out) then or later usually gets only a response of "Well *I'm* not taking the risk!", leading to a stalemate. And a very boring game if getting through that door is what has to happen next.

At least giving xp to the risk-takers tries to mitigate this a little.

Lan-"everything dies, baby, that's a fact; and everything that dies someday comes back - B Springsteen"-efan

It is honestly starting to sound like you are used to playing with a very divided group, with players not working as a cohesive whole, and rampant player selfishness ruining what should be a team game. You have a lot of examples of what seems more a player problem, not character. Which to me screams you should be talking to your players, not trying to attribute this behaviour to gamers as a whole.

There's also a lot of entitlement in your statements. I took the risk. I should get more XP. Where the heck is the team spirit? Do you honestly play with people this way? Always trying to push your way to the fore and make sure you snag your share of the reward (apparently XP)? If D&D was a competitive game against your own party, this mentality would make sense, but the game is supposed to be about the party working together to tackle challenges and overcome adversity. Not about who risks their life the most and therefore deserves the bigger share of the XP pie.
 

MostlyDm

Explorer
Actually, now that you mention it, in my E6 campaign, I think that every NPC was first level... Huh.

Heh.

That campaign I mentioned where the players can decide their own incoming levels is actually a quasi-e6 homebrew. I allow a lot more power creep than regular feats though, especially in some areas (damage is easier to get than HP, for example).

I let people come in at whatever level (up to the max of 5) they like, and with however many "tiers" (what we call the feat-like bonuses accrued on level up after maxing at 5) as they like as well. The longest term characters are something like tier 22 (they "earned it" after starting at 1st) and the lowest are not yet level 5.

NPCs run the same range. Ultimately, level is not the most important factor.

The level zero crippled crap shoveler was still able to survive a war and end up a (fifth level) well-respected mounted warrior and banner-bearer. He played smart and cautious, and survived. Much tougher, higher level characters have bitten it.
 

Amatiel

Explorer
Does anyone have to deal with a player continually rolling up new PCs.. Every 4-5 levels they get bored and want to drop their PC for a new cherry flavored one. What rules do you use for gear for PCs above first level ?
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Does anyone have to deal with a player continually rolling up new PCs.. Every 4-5 levels they get bored and want to drop their PC for a new cherry flavored one. What rules do you use for gear for PCs above first level ?

I do. One of my players constantly gets bored with their characters and wants to hop out into something new. I'd say it's probably every 2-3 months this happens.

I want my players to enjoy their time at the table and not be burdened playing a character they're no longer enjoying. However, I want my group to remain cohesive so switch-outs need to happen at reasonable times. No switchouts in the wilderness. New characters come in with 1st-level starting gold and basic gear, rationale: the only reason your high-level character gave up their non-adventuring lifestyle is because they are currently down on their luck. Perhaps they pissed off a local Lord or alienated themselves from the local thieves guild, but whatever the reason, the end result is you are basically broke, homeless and friendless. And that group of dirty, smelly guys asking around the bar for a new adventuring companion might just be your ticket back in to the good life.

Also, current level -2. Even with parties that all level the same. Opportunities will be provided to catch up, it's up to you to take them.

I want you to have fun. But I don't want constant interruptions of the flow of the game because you're bored easily. Put some extra effort into the next one. DM reserves the right to deny switch-outs at any time, or increase the penalties.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
And that's fine! I've done it both ways, and when a player of course it's usually in a campaign where XP is a reward. Except for those players who found they really liked the levels-are-not-a-reward system. When levels are strictly a metric for the power level of the party (and note: explicitly NOT a measure of the PCs compared to one another; that is inherently eliminated as part of the equation), and all characters automatically are they same level at every point of the campaign, how is it a reward? I ask that in all seriousness. If it is inherent to the system that it will be equivalent for all characters in a campaign at every stage of the game, how is it a reward?
Is isn't.

But then, I don't eliminate the PC-vs.-PC comparison; and nor do I want to.

Well...actually, yes something can say XP can't go on top of that: me, as the DM, eliminating that as a rule. ;) MOST campaigns will use XP and levels upon reaching certain amounts of XP as part of the reward system, and I am perfectly capable and content to participate. But when I run a game, I simply do not use that system for rewards. And again, it might be that you not only aren't getting rewards for those griffons (beyond their corpses), you may have screwed up the local ecology pretty significantly and ticked off a local druid. Especially if you kill random groups of animals like that.
Well, you'd still get the xp for killing them, and maybe more for some diplomacy dealing with the Druid later. :)

And that's fine. But not how it's done in my campaigns, and I certainly don't require players divvy up their cash and booty evenly. On the contrary, it's pretty much whoever benefits most likely takes a specific item, and cash is either pooled per the characters' discretion, or kept for individual rewards. A rogue that successfully sneaks off and finds some stuff is under no obligation to divulge that, and in many a piece of fiction that is the case. A wizard gaining a tower, or gaining a rather incredibly expensive non-magical item like a telescope simply gets it. The other characters will not necessarily be compensated equally in terms of monetary items if it doesn't make sense to do so.
Ah. It's beginning to occur to me that we're almost mirror-imaging this: you have even xp and variable treasure, I have variable xp and even treasure.

But at the same time, being knighted? Gaining a license to kill for the Crown? Those are VERY valuable to have as well. A character will gain significant benefit from such a boon that might very well be "worth" more than a tower, stocked lab, and expensive telescope combined.
Depends on the character. I've seen characters do everything they could to avoid being knighted, so as not to have to answer to the Crown for everything they did.

Oh, that's easy. I don't use those mechanics. One of the least favorite mechanics in any edition of the game, so readily tossed out. And yes, that includes that particular effect from a Deck of Many Things.
'Nuff said.

Well, resurrection is generally extraordinarily rare, and will only happen soon after death. By the time the party has leveled up, it is likely too bring a dead ally back to life. Resurrection magic in particular is one of, if not the rarest form of magic ever performed in one of my campaigns. The very existence of such magic has implications on the economy and the world that are too far reaching to ignore, unless it is specifically tied in to the world as part of the lore. If enough resources can buy you respite from death, what is to stop the nobility and monarchy from taking many more risks, and being raised from the dead? What threat is assassination in such a world? Now, as I said, some game worlds having the nobility have such control over life and death was used on purpose, to exemplify their stranglehold on every aspect of society. The lower classes feared them all the more, because they truly could just come back from the dead, while all the piss-poor members of the other classes stayed dead when their time came.

But generally? Characters don't GET resurrected, unless there is an extraordinary reason to do so. That is not simply a class of spells divine classes happen to have. Most of the "resurrection" type spells instead bring back a recently slain ally, as in slain in this last battle. Bringing them back from the brink of death, not actually raising them from the dead.
My games tend to be a bit on the lethal side, and so having resurrection available (at a cost) is a useful counter-balance. And having it work as you do, where someone can be revived only within a few moments after death, pretty much precludes revival at all until the party gets to level enough to have revival effects available in the field. I don't at all mind a party having to decide whether to keep going in an adventure or head for town to revive someone.

And I don't find it all that ludicrous for them to learn from their experience. They were just in the afterlife, in a world where there is actual evidence of there BEING an afterlife. They weren't simply floating in oblivion, they were in the Fields of Elysium, the were traversing the River Styx when they were called back to the mortal world, they were drinking in the Halls of Valhalla, or whatnot. As they say, death is the ultimate experience. Why wouldn't they come back changed, understand more of the secrets of the universe, etc? Not all that ludicrous.
That's one way of looking at it. I have it that except for the most unusual of circumstances revived characters forget everything that happened to them while dead.

While the use of Companies like that seems common enough among gaming circles, I actually find the idea of adventurers only being able to exist under such formally contractual circumstances to be rather...extraordinarily unlikely.
Oh, very possibly...I was just chucking it out there as an off-the-cuff idea for an in-game rationale that could support an ES@1 system. I never said it was workable. :)

In my worlds there aren't actually "adventurers". There is never some sort of class of people out and about who are called "adventurers". While out of character they might be called adventurers, that term would rarely if ever be tossed around by people within the game world itself. Rather like most fighters actually wouldn't be called a fighter. A knight, a soldier, a mercenary, a bounty hunter, a warrior, etc? Sure. A fighter? Highly unlikely. Just not my cup of tea.
Where in mine "adventurer" can be an occupation just like "baker" or "jeweller" or "beggar"; and many less-than-noble types (Thieves, Assassins, some Fighter types, etc.) might go no further than that in describing what they do.

Lan-"if I gained xp for what I did while I was dead I'd be about 25th level by now"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It is honestly starting to sound like you are used to playing with a very divided group, with players not working as a cohesive whole,
Well, the characters often don't; and that's what can make it fun! :)
and rampant player selfishness ruining what should be a team game.
"Should" in your eyes maybe. The party might be a team but every single character in it has their own agenda and their own reasons for being there...some might be noble, some might not.

There's also a lot of entitlement in your statements. I took the risk. I should get more XP.
Except if someone else took the risk I'd argue just as loudly that they should get the xp.

Where the heck is the team spirit? Do you honestly play with people this way? Always trying to push your way to the fore and make sure you snag your share of the reward (apparently XP)?
Some bold accusations there.

I see an adventuring party in many ways like a pro sports team. Yes all the players are in theory working as a team, but they're not all there for the same reason. Some are playing for a better contract next season. Some are just going through the motions earning a paycheck. Some are trying to get their coach fired for whatever reason. And within the team they're all competing against each other for more playing time and recognition. Further, some of them might despise each other as people.

If D&D was a competitive game against your own party, this mentality would make sense,
And in some ways it is, if you look at it through the sports-team lens - my new character might have just come in as the party's second-string Cleric, but rest assured I'm going to do what I can over time to make myself useful and valuable (and entertaining) to the party; and if the party's current number one Cleric isn't pulling her weight then I'm sooner or later going to take her job. Just like real life.

but the game is supposed to be about the party working together to tackle challenges and overcome adversity.
The crazy thing is that on this point we largely agree*. My point is that if the party isn't working together because some characters aren't pulling their weight, why should these passengers be rewarded?

* - note however that our games might be a bit unusual in that in-character party infighting - even to the point of death - is allowed; as are romances, crushes, rivalries, jealousies, and so on. Our crew all know each other very well out-of-game and can keep the character stuff in character. Sometimes these events are the ones most talked about after, and on nights where the party wants to do its own thing the DM can put his feet up and relax. :)

Not about who risks their life the most and therefore deserves the bigger share of the XP pie.
Thems as does the work gets the rewards...again, largely like real life.

Let me jump to one of [MENTION=82812]Tectuktitlay[/MENTION] 's examples and show how this can go so very wrong even in an all-the-same-level game.

A party of 5 run by long-time friends take to the field with a simple (and stereotypical) mission: rescue a princess from a dragon. Bring her back and there's a knighthood in it for each of you. Our 5 intrepid adventurers aren't high enough level to get revival in the field, but they otherwise think they have enough going for them that this should be a do-able mission; and so off they go.

We have in our rather ordinary starting lineup:
Aloysius the Cleric (Human) - wise, willing, somewhat noble, not great at combat but stands in when he can, uses spells to good effect, long-time party member
Bjarnni the Ranger (Human) - prefers scouting over fighting, really good tracker, a bit of a loner but a long-time party member
Calliandre the Magic-user (Elf) - a wild card, unpredictable, gets good results from her spells by sheer luck rather than planning, long-time party member
Dwalin the Fighter (Dwarf) - tough as nails, can tank with the best, always stands in and defends his party, long-time party member
Eeyore the Thief (Part-Orc) - tough and sturdy for a Thief, competent, new recruit (replacing Fred who died last time out) but passed all the party's pre-screening tests

So, our stalwart crew heads off and a few days later easily finds the dragon...but then things go wrong. After some good planning and pre-casting Aloysius and Dwalin take it on while Bjarnni shoots arrows from cover and Calliandre casts spells at it. Eeyore, who was supposed to sneak around and backstrike the dragon to distract it, makes himself scarce as soon as the combat starts, deciding instead to use the combat's distraction to try and find the princess; the fact that doing this also nicely keeps him out of danger plays into this snap decision. The dragon wins...mostly. Dwalin and Aloysius hurt it but then get shredded by its claws while one breath weapon does in Calliandre; so all three die. On seeing this Bjarnni - who is here mostly for the treasure - tosses aside his bow and heroically takes on what's left of the dragon by himself, and brings it down. Shortly after this Eeyore returns and announces he's found the princess but needs help opening the cage she's in (he claims to have failed his open locks roll but in fact never even tried, as he noticed the lock is trapped; and the other players do not know this); so he and Bjarnni go down and Bjarnni smashes the lock with a hammer. In the meantime Eeyore, also unknown to any other player or character, has also skimmed some of the dragon's small expensive treasures for himself.

It's not lost on Bjarnni that had Eeyore done his part in the battle it's very likely Aloysius and Dwalin could have survived (Calliandre, being a spindly Elf, was probably doomed no matter what); and he has some harsh words for Eeyore afterwards. Then the two survivors scoop the (remaining) treasure and take the princess back to town, and Bjarnni and Eeyore become knights of the realm.

So, here we have Eeyore who did nothing getting the greatest reward (knighthood *and* extra treasure); Bjarnni who pulled his weight and survived getting a decent reward (knighthood and treasure), and Aloysuis, Calliandre and Dwalin who pulled their weight and died maybe getting their names on a memorial plaque somewhere. Everyone gets a level.

Is this fair?

I'm aware that the above is an extreme - almost ridiculous - example; but done a bit more subtly over the long run the Eeyores of the game end up richer and more decorated than the true heroes they've left for dead. And as I'm all too often one of those in the left-for-dead brigade, I-as-player get annoyed; and I'm just not patient enough to turn the tables and play my own Eeyore-like character. It's difficult to confront a player over this, however, as the counter-argument of the Eeyore-type character simply doing what it did out of a sense of self-preservation is just about impossible to refute.

I'm also aware that using variable xp doesn't completely mitigate this, but in my system at least Bjarnni would get loads more xp for this trip than Eeyore would.

A second ongoing effect to note here is that it's now Bjarnni and Eeyore - neither of whom are exactly Good and who by now probably don't like each other very much - who are left rebuilding the party, and will likely recruit characters more suiting their own ethos.

Lan-"and while the new party they build might not accomplish very much of use, it'd probably be way more entertaining than the last lot"-efan
 


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