New Race: Gutterkin

[Bront]

Looks pretty balanced, though perhaps they have a few too many skill bonuses for their speed. I'd drop the move silently bonus (They get a dex bonus already) and the racial save bonus.

I don't understand why people think they're getting a strength bonus and the actual penalty for a small race is -4. The Halfling and Gnome get a -2, which seems par for a PC race in strength penalty for small.

The Power attack example listed earlier requires you to take a feat. You can't assume feats.

 

[Thraka]

I don't understand why people think they're getting a strength bonus and the actual penalty for a small race is -4. The Halfling and Gnome get a -2, which seems par for a PC race in strength penalty for small.

True, it’s not a Str bonus, not really. It just seems that the design philosophy for the Small races in the PHB was that they lose Str (perhaps because they already get a +1 to hit for being small, or whatever). So whenever there’s a Small race that doesn’t lose Str, I suppose it might seem odd. Personally, I don’t have a problem with it.

The Power attack example listed earlier requires you to take a feat. You can't assume feats.

Tch, yeah. Good point.

I think that I’m pretty well convinced that their ability modifiers are balanced. So we move onto other racial traits. Right now, I’m kicking around combining the suggestions of Bront and ARandomGod: get rid of their +2 to Move Silent and their saving throw bonus, and give them a +2 on grapple checks instead. The only problem with those modifications is that they seem to really push gutterkin into having a meaner outlook. Which mechanically isn’t a problem, but doesn’t really fit my concept for them- it starts to shift gutterkin from merely being lucky (which is the reason for their saving throw bonus), scrappy, and survivable to having a more pugnacious attitude.

Any other thoughts on their skills/racial bonuses?

EDIT: Hm, the more I think about replacing Move Silent and the saving throw bonus with the grapple bonus, the more I'm liking it. I suppose I could be really nutty and just switch the Move Silent with the grapple bonus and leave the +1 to saving throws as is... but that seems a bit much.

 

[Bront]

You could also drop their sense bonuses (Spot, search, listen) to +1 instead of removing the +2 MS or the +1 save.

 

[ARandomGod]

I don't understand why people think they're getting a strength bonus and the actual penalty for a small race is -4. The Halfling and Gnome get a -2, which seems par for a PC race in strength penalty for small.

Ah. I'm saying that there's a hidden -4 penalty to strength (average) to small races. I get this from looking at the various size penalties to weapons, and from their overall carrying capacity. Apply a little math and you'll find that on the low end weapons it's only an effective -2 to strength (for damage only) and on higher end weapons it's -6 to strength (damage only). The carrying capacity is at a pretty much straigh -4 to strength. Admittedly carrying capacity is only important in some games, but it's still a good factor to look at when attempting to determine what the overall size 'penalty' to stength a small creature actually gets.



For examples, some excerpts from an email conversation I had in one of my game groups:

A halfling gets a -2 to strength, an orc gets a +4 to
strength. However, a halfling who's really worked out and has gotten
up to a 16 strength (18-2) compared with an orc who's really only
lightly better than 'average' and is also a 16 strength (12+4)....
they have the same strength, I think that they should do the same
damage. At least, I don't think that the halfling should do LESS,
which as the rules are written he will.


I understand the arguement of speed over force. And yes, if the orc's
fist manages to get up the same speed as the halfling's fist, well
that larger ham is going to hurt much more. However if they both have
a 16 strength, well, the orc doesn't have the strength to accelerate
his fist as fast as the halfling does. So the orc's fist won't be
traveling as fast. The halfling has just as much force, but less fist
to apply it to, and so hits harder than the orc... the orc hits with
more mass, but not as hard. It doesn't seem to me that the halfling
would/should be doing less damage.


as the game is written, the weakest possible orc monk
(8+4=12) at level 20 (4d8 damage) would deal 5-33 damage, for an
average of 19.

Whereas the strongest possible Halfling monk (18-2=16) at level 20
(2d8) would deal 5-19 damage, for an average of 12.

That's right, the absolute strongest possible halfling would have to
do maximum damage in order to deal out what the weakest possible orc
does *on average*.

 

[ARandomGod]

I think that I’m pretty well convinced that their ability modifiers are balanced. So we move onto other racial traits. Right now, I’m kicking around combining the suggestions of Bront and ARandomGod: get rid of their +2 to Move Silent and their saving throw bonus, and give them a +2 on grapple checks instead. The only problem with those modifications is that they seem to really push gutterkin into having a meaner outlook. Which mechanically isn’t a problem, but doesn’t really fit my concept for them- it starts to shift gutterkin from merely being lucky (which is the reason for their saving throw bonus), scrappy, and survivable to having a more pugnacious attitude.

I like the scrappy pugnacious attitude too. Of course, it was kind of my suggestion there.

But I also like the luck bonus.

I say keep the move silently, and drop the spot/search/listen bonus for the grapple bonus. MS is a ranger type skill, the perception skills are more roguish than ranger (Although I do always give those skills to my ranger). Also the MS is less powerful than the three perception skills.

 

[Thraka]

I say keep the move silently, and drop the spot/search/listen bonus for the grapple bonus.

How about this: drop Move Silent, and drop the Search bonus (not the bonuses to spot and listen, though). In exchange, give the grapple bonus. With these changes, their racial traits look like:

Gutterkin Racial Traits
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence. Gutterkin are quick and strong for their size, but don't do well when in comes to thinking ahead, or thinking in abstracts, or thinking at all.
• Small: As a Small creature, a gutterkin gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• A gutterkin's base speed is 30 feet. Gutterkins' speed has helped them get out of danger on more than one occasion.
• +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Having been forced to live in particularly hazardous areas, gutterkin have learned to always be wary of potential hazards.
• +2 racial bonus on grapple checks. Gutterkin are scrappy, and more pugnacious than seems healthy for a creature of their size.
• +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. Survival of the fittest is the name of the game for gutterkin, and those that are fittest are the ones best able to shrug off the poisons, diseases, falling rubble, collapsing shanties, and other accidents that plague gutterkin communities.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Gutterkin.
• Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Orc.
• Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass gutterkin’s ranger class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

I'm pretty happy with this arrangment. I got rid of search not only for mechanical reasons, but because they really shouldn't be getting bonuses on Int based skills. Anyway, what do ya'll think of them now? If they still seem a little out of balance, what I'll do is give them Move Silent back, but change their +1 to all saves into a +1 just on poisons and diseases.

 

[ARandomGod]

I like it. A nice, well rounded class. Not the perfect fighter, with that size... but a pretty good one nonetheless. A hit to intelligence hurts the rogue-skill based classes that want that extra dex, so that's very well balanced.

They're getting...

And effective +10 to speed (compensatory for the size, so less powergame applicable.)
+2 to two skills
+2 to grapple (Again a partial compensation for size)
+1 to all saves.

No low light or darkvision... the +/- to skills are designed to break even or even actively discourage many of the classes it would be most tempting for... (Rogues/wizards)...

Looking at it objectively I wouldn't even call it a strong build. Quite comperable to a halfling in power, I'd even go so far as to say less powerful. Quite balanced, best for ranged fighters and sorcerors. Almost no perfect for sorcs, in fact. They don't really need/care about intelligence in general, the dex helps AC. The small size helps AC and to hit... Having favored class ranger lightly penalizes the sorc.... Looking at it more from this point of view I'm tempted to say that granting a full +4 to grapple instead of +2 wouldn't really boost them above the power level of the base classes. I wouldn't give them more bonus skills though. I think the + to spot and listen are quite appropriate. A gutterkin sorc with a familiar would get a total of +4 to spot and listen, very alert for a sorc!

Edit: Actually... size makes a difference in many special attacks. Bull-rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, trip... I think granting something (similiar to powerful build) that would give a +2 (+4? I keep being uncertain on that, so +2) to all special attacks regarding size would be more appropriate IMO, and would have the effect of making them closer to 'average' +0 ECL creatures.

 

[Shane_Leahy]

What if instead of a +2 to grapple checks it was +4 to grapple checks to escape a grapple. So if they want to grapple someone it is hard to do but they are used to escaping and getting away which ties into thier movement bonus also.

 

[ARandomGod]

What if instead of a +2 to grapple checks it was +4 to grapple checks to escape a grapple. So if they want to grapple someone it is hard to do but they are used to escaping and getting away which ties into thier movement bonus also.

I've thought of that too... but it should defintiely be to resist or escape, not just to escape. I've played with grapple a lot and there's no real way to 'escape' a grappler other than to resist the grapple in the first place. Or having a move speed that's more than double your opponent's move speed.

 

[ARandomGod]

Edit: Actually... size makes a difference in many special attacks. Bull-rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, trip... I think granting something (similiar to powerful build) that would give a +2 (+4? I keep being uncertain on that, so +2) to all special attacks regarding size would be more appropriate IMO, and would have the effect of making them closer to 'average' +0 ECL creatures.

Of course, that seems ... difficult to do to me. Besides, bull rush, disarm, and overrun aren't all that frequently used. (Note: If this is also true in your games, take another look at overrun and improved overrun. A pretty good feat/maneuver.)

But still... something...

How about something that would allow them to stand from prone as a free action that does not provoke, in addition to the +2 to grapple checks. They'd still be tripped, wouldn't be better at tripping, they'd still get overrun, wouldn't be better at overrunning... they would just be hard to keep down.