new race

[Henry]

Scion,

You know, you keep wanting to use those Racial Hit Dice as a balancing factor, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that they give you the following:

Looked fine to me.

I'm just reminding everyone that, rather than starting or responding to any name-calling wars they're free to drop the thread at any time.

 

[Scion]

First of all, for everyone concerned: Let's please eliminate snarky comments and insults.

Second, if someone requests help, and does not express themselves in a manner you find civil, it's best to simply not respond back. In some cases, putting someone on an ignore list is better than picking a fight. Scion is looking for an involved critique-post-and-rebuttal of his work in this thread. If you have decided it's not what you're interested in participating in, it's best to not post in it.

Thanks, all.

Thanks henry, and I am sorry you had to step in

 

[Scion]

Scion,

You know, you keep wanting to use those Racial Hit Dice as a balancing factor, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that they give you the following:

+2d8 + 2xCon mod hit points
+2 HD for purposes of resisting spells
+3 Will save
+1 BAB
10 + (5*Int mod) in skill points

What exactly is this "penalty" balancing?

Oddly enough, if you ditched the Racial Hit Dice and all the stat bonuses, you'd have a +0 LA race in my opinion.

After running through the comparisons I put up, it is my opinion that the Kri'Loroth should be 2HD +1 LA. At 2 Racial Hit Dice, it is too strong. I have shown you my reasons, and you simply do not agree. I simply cannot see how you think that the laundry list of advantages the Kri'Loroth has (Psi ability is 4 other defensive powers, and you didn't list the stat bonuses either) is not better than an "equivalent" (ECL-wise) human, or elf, etc. As you either do not understand or agree with my argument, nothing else I have to say will be of any use to you.

Good luck with your race, and I hope you find a way to balance it to your satisfaction.

The hd are a drawback, they just arent as much of a drawback as LA. You are right though, they do give some bonuses to the guy.

I have always felt that LA was a bit too much of a stopgap issue, it tends to create problems. Using racial hd and delaying the biggest bonuses till later levels to be really effective means that the character has much less of a 'gap', allowing for a smoother transition.

Lets say that we made this guy +2 LA with no racial hd as someone suggested earlier, that would mean that he could not be played at level 1 really, he would just die too easily. Even at later levels they still sting, being 2 points behind in every skill can be huge (it even delays synergy bonuses by 2 levels).


What do you think would be the problem with adding an extra racial hd? I'd prefer to add in a little extra beanie for the cost (maybe change to darkvision or an extra good save) but if it was just flat one more hd of aberration how do you think that would adjust things?

The general balance that I see would look like this:
Kri'Loroth
Large Abberation
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (avg 23)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10
Armor Class: 11 ( +2 dex, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Reach: 5'
Attack: Quarterstaff (d6+4 19-20/x2, +4), Heavy Crossbow (d10 20/x3, +3)
Skills: 18 skill points for base race skills
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6
Feats: 2 any feats, 2 psionic feats
PP: 0
Powers: 0
Manifestor level: 0
Special: Low light vision

vs

Human psychic warrior 3
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (avg 20)
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8
Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Reach: 5'
Attack: Longsword (d8+2 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +3)
Skills: 18 skill points from psychic warrior list
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Feats: 3 any feats, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)
PP: 6
Powers: 3 1st level powers
Manifestor level: 3

For the comparison the Kri'Loroth has 3 more hp, way worse ac (no armor prof), 1 better ini, 1 better in grapple, +1/+1.5 better in damage in melee, 1 less damage in ranged, worse skill point selection, +1 fort, +1 reflex, +3 will, 1 less any feat, 2 less psychic warrior feats, 2 more psionic feats, 6 less pp, 3 less first level powers, 3 less manifestor levels.

Now, this is with a hd instead of the extra LA (the hd is inargueably better than a point of LA). Do you feel that these are equivalent choices?

I will assume that you do not, but that you feel at higher levels it will even out. If this is incorrect please let me know the how and why

Kri'Loroth Psychic Warrior 17
Hit Dice: 20d8+40 (avg 133.5)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 10 (5 points into wis)
Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 dex, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+15
Reach: 5'
Attack: Longsword (d8+3 19-20/x2, +14), Mighty +3 Composite Longbow (d8+3 20/x3, +13)
Skills: 18 skill points for base race skills, 51 psychic warrior skill points
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +14
Feats: 7 any feats, 2 psionic feats, 7 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psionic)
PP: 159
Powers: 17 psychic warrior powers of up to 6th level (2 6th max)
Manifestor level: 17
Special: Low light vision, weak build, psi-ability (metaphysical and inertial armor +4 more defensive powers)

vs

Human psychic warrior 20
Hit Dice: 20d8+20 (avg 113.5)
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8 (5 points into wis)
Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+17
Reach: 5'
Attack: Longsword (d8+2 19-20/x2, +17), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +16)
Skills: 69 skill points from psychic warrior list
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +12
Feats: 8 any feats, 8 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)
PP: 177
Powers: 20 psychic warrior powers up to 6th level (5 6th)
Manifestor level: 20

I see the differences as this: The Kri'Loroth has 20 more hp, 1 less flatfooted, 1 more ini, 3 less BAB, 2 less grapple, +1/+1.5 damage melee, -3 to hit melee, +1 damage ranged, -3 to hit ranged, worse skill list for 18 points (I realize there is some issue here about how major of an issue it is, but it is a detriment, if slight), 1 less fort, 2 more will, 1 less any feat, 1 less psychic warrior feat, 2 more psionic feats, 18 less pp (this gap gets larger with stat boosting items), 3 less 6th level powers, 3 less manifestor levels, low light vision, weakbuild, psi ability.

(hopefully I didnt miss anything in the above ;/ )

From my point of view the psychic warrior is a primary combatant. Having the extra -3 to all attack rolls along with less combatant feat choice (this last part is debateable, but nearly all of the psionic feats that are useful as a combatant require expending focus, which basically means only one attack per round) makes for a much lesser choice.

3 less 6th level powers means less choice and variety.
3 less manifestor levels means your powers are much easier to dispel (15% more likely, with a 20th level manifestor and some work a psychic warrior could make his powers unable to be dispelled by a caster/manifestor with a caster/manifestor level of 20 or less, this guy starts at 15% and goes up from there).

As far as what he actually has over the human it comes down to +20 hp, +1 ini, +1 damage, +2 will, low light vision, and psi-ability. In pretty much everything else he is behind, and sometimes very far behind indeed.


Given the choice between the two at this level which would seem more powerful? Under most circumstances which would you choose? (nonrp circumstances of course, with rp choices I have seen people play pet rocks who could take no actions at all )


This is what it looks like with a +1 hd 'instead' of the +1 LA. With the LA the Kri'Loroth has 6.5 less hp, 1 less bab, 1 less to hit in melee, 1 less to hit in ranged, 1 less fort, 1 less reflex, and 3 less skill points.

Being 4 points behind in to hit when they start off at medium to begin with seems pretty rough ;/ Basically puts them back down into the poor bab range for a primary combatant.


You are right though, I didnt list +2 to each stat in the bonuses. This is because all it really matters for is stat damage at this point. It is a benefit, but so minor I havent even taken it into account. I can add it in if you feel it is a big deal

 

[Scion]

You seemed to miss the fighter example I gave.

I actually ignored it because it kept on having things like the reach in there, even after I had said a couple of times that it didnt have it.

I'll check it over now and fix the differences.

I think it's still valid. And I disagree with your assessment that your race is not balanced well against the lizardfolk (I stated line for line what I though was and wasn't balanced in that assessment, you simply point out what you think is more powerful about the lizard folk, and ignored what was more powerful about your race). Honestly, if it was a choice between the lizardfolk and your race at +1 LA and +2 Racial HD, I'd take your race 90% of the time. For just about any class.

The lizardfolk are an odd one as I said before. The +6 natural armor is 'huge'. At low levels it is a much, much larger benefit than the +2 to each stat. Maybe even at higher levels as well. If someone has a 50% chance to hit an equally decked out Kri'Loroth he has only a 15% chance to hit the Lizardfolk.

This is an incredible ability. At low level it completely trumps the Kri'Loroths actual abilities in power. But, it is boring. Very boring. The Kri'Loroth can make for a much broader and more interesting character overall in this comparison, but that isnt important for actual race balance however.

Then there are the 3 natural attacks. Like I said before, these can be a pretty major boon when everyone else only has one attack anyway. It even beats out the two handed sword in damage potential and that is without the extra +2 str that the race gets.

They are much less important later in levels, but LA is there for beginning levels.

These two things alone, without anything else taken into account about their race, I feel make them something you can give to a low level character (say, first level)

You are right that I ignored most of the differences, but I thought I explained why pretty well. +6 extra natural armor at low level can make a guy go from 'hittable' to 'untouchable'. That is a big portion of why I feel it is the way that it is. Much like how the halfdragon is +3 LA, he has that +8 str floating around and having a first level guy walking around with a 32str just doesnt work out properly.

I realize that you might feel the bonus for +6 natural armor isnt as big of a deal as I do, maybe this will help.

If you were up against two characters, a human fighter and a lizardfolk fighter, both decked out in armor, which is more dangerous? The one with 1 attack a round and an AC of 18 or the one with 3 attacks in a round and an AC of 24? There are other things of course, I think that this helps show the examples a little though.


Still though, if it was a choice between the lizardfolk and a human with 3 class levels which would you choose? I'd still go with the human in nearly every case, even with the bonus, because the human with class levels has so many more options. Which is basically the same thing you said about the Lizardfolk vs Kri'Loroth.

I agree with Icycool. Racial HD are not a good balancing factor in small numbers, because there is no huge disadvantage, and the disadvantage is best described when compairing straight class builds. For extreme multi-class builds, it's almost negligable (And could be an advantage in some cases). This race needs some sort of LA.

The disadvantage must be described with class builds of course for a few reasons. First of all, it is really hard to compare a race with another when one has a different starting level. Secondly, LA is supposed to be based off of the best build possible to make the character. I feel that in this case it is the psychic warrior, almost entirely because of psionic body and the psychic warriors absolute dependence on combat powers. Thirdly, the racial hd and LA cut into later class abilities, which is one of the big problems later on. It slows down progression (as high level abilities tend to be stronger) and generally makes these abilities weaker (using hd or la with primary casters is incredibly difficult, animal companions who are weaker tend not to be able to help as much with combat as others, and on)

I am not sure what you mean by extreme multiclassing builds being able to ignore the penalty. It seems to me that if they are going for a lot of classes then going for a race where they could get those extra levels sooner would be better for them. Especially as they would likely be going for a specific type of build and/or prc.

Looking back over the fighter comparison now

Kri'Loroth Fighter 18
Large Abberation
HD: 2d8+18D10+60 (avg 171.5)
Init: +3
AC: 12 (+2 dex, -1 size) (F:9, T: 12)
BAB/Grapple: +19/+23
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +11
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Speed: 30'
Reach: 5'
Melee: +22, +4 or 6 to damage
Ranged: +21
Feats: 7 any, 10 fighter, 2 psionic
Skills: 20 racial, 72 fighter
PP: 20
Special: Low light vision, weak build

Human Fighter 20
HD: 20D10+40 (154.5) (17 less)
Init: +2 (1 less)
AC: 12 (F:10, T: 12) (same, 1 more, same)
BAB/Grapple: +20/+23 (1 more BAB)
Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +7 (1 less reflex, 4 less will)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Size: Medium
Speed: 30'
Reach: 5'
Melee: +23, +3 or 4 to damage (+1 attack, -1/1.5 damage)
Ranged: +22 (+1 to attack, -1 damage)
Feats: 8 any, 11 fighter
Skills: 92 fighter

So, the human has 17 less hp, 1 less ini, 1 more flatfooted ac, 1 more BAB, 1 less reflex, 4 less will, +1 to melee attack, -1/1.5 melee damage, +1 ranged attack, -1 ranged damage, 1 more any feat, 1 more fighter feat, 2 less psionic feats, different skill selection for 20 points (concentration doesnt help the fighter at all, knowledge (psionics) doesnt do much for him either, the biggest boon is autohypnosis, but during that time the fighter cant put many points into intimidate, handle animal, or ride, but that is more dependent on character concept)

I think out of all of this the +4 to will save is the biggest bump for the Kri'Loroth over the human. Everything else washes out pretty well (+1 to attack is worth way, way more at this level than even a +2 to damage always on, optimal power attack use requires being able to use it only when chosen, there is no choice with how that is laid out right now, 1 more BAB means that at some levels the human is ahead on iterative attacks, the feat difference means that the human has a wider selection of choices and so access to more feat chains, being straight fighter means being able to get things like weapon specialization 2 levels earlier, etc).

Definatley ahead, does +4 will warrant a +1 LA?

If we give the Kri'Loroth a +1 LA then the above shifts to this:
The human has 8.5 less hp, 1 less ini, 1 more flatfooted ac, 2 more BAB, 3 less will, +2 melee attack, -1/1.5 melee damage, +2 ranged attack, -1 ranged damage, 1 more any feat, 2 more fighter feat, 2 less psionic feats, 4 less skill points, different skill choice for 20 skill points.

Now, in this one the human is way ahead. Way, way ahead

So, in one the Kri'Loroth is ahead by a pretty good margin, +4 will.
In the other the human is way ahead (+3 will for the Kri'Loroth, but +2 attack, an extra feat, more skill points, and such definately trump that)

What would you suggest to change to fix these to make them more even?

 

[Bront]

I actually ignored it because it kept on having things like the reach in there, even after I had said a couple of times that it didnt have it.

What would you suggest to change to fix these to make them more even?

I believe all large creatures have reach. That's why it keeps getting added in there.

I feel it's balanced well actualy at +1 LA and 2 Racial HD, the HP are a big advantage, lowlight vision is usefull, and the psionic feats are not nessessarily detriments (Speed of thought and Psionic Dodge are quite nice). He should be at a disadvantage when compaired to the Human in Feats and Skills, and he's not because of the int bonus and 2 bonus feats (In fact, in a class that doesn't grant bonus feats, like a sorcerer, he'll be at an advantage against the human there). So he's missing 1 BaB, it happens. Don't forget, he's at +1 to EVERY skill he has simply by having better stats. He's +1 on all stat checks. At epic levels, he's closer to getting most of the epic feats due to higher stats. I think you're discounting a lot of the bonuses they do get and focusing on where they're deficient. Every race has some deficiencies (Compair a 20th halfling fighter to a 20th human fighter, the halfling comes up short on several things).

I think you are better off making them a largeish medium race and droping the wirey/weak build. They can still be 8' hulking brutes and be medium. A large race has a reach of 10' and takes up a 10x10 square, and it seems that you don't seem to want any of those things.

You can always try +1 and 1 HD, that might work to your satisfaction. But I think that it's not enough.

 

[Scion]

I believe all large creatures have reach. That's why it keeps getting added in there.

Nah, not all do. Most of them do, but not all.

I feel it's balanced well actualy at +1 LA and 2 Racial HD, the HP are a big advantage, lowlight vision is usefull, and the psionic feats are not nessessarily detriments (Speed of thought and Psionic Dodge are quite nice). He should be at a disadvantage when compaired to the Human in Feats and Skills, and he's not because of the int bonus and 2 bonus feats (In fact, in a class that doesn't grant bonus feats, like a sorcerer, he'll be at an advantage against the human there). So he's missing 1 BaB, it happens. Don't forget, he's at +1 to EVERY skill he has simply by having better stats. He's +1 on all stat checks. At epic levels, he's closer to getting most of the epic feats due to higher stats. I think you're discounting a lot of the bonuses they do get and focusing on where they're deficient. Every race has some deficiencies (Compair a 20th halfling fighter to a 20th human fighter, the halfling comes up short on several things).

I dont see the extra hp overcoming the manifestor level loss though for the psychic warrior or other casters. The human is definately ahead in the sorcerer race though, the Kri'Loroth can pick two feats that dont really do anything for sorcerers directly in all likelyhood but the human is ahead by an entire spell level. Human sorc vs Kri'Loroth sorc and personally I'd pick the human 99% of the time.

I dont see that the human should, by default, be ahead of others in the feat/skill arena. However, with that said, the human gets an any feat and jumps directly into class skills with his bonus points, the Kri'Loroth gets bonus psionic feats (much more limited list) and has to use many skill points on racial skills only (this part could go either way about good or bad, but it definately slows down many class skill progressions, especially if you have a high bonus and dont want any crafts or professions, that only leaves 3 choices, one of which is really only helpful for casters/manifestors).

So, the human is still better in the feat area, so long as you make a choice that isnt a psionic feat.

This reminds me of the balance they did between the psion and the wizard. The wizard gets two feats at first level: craft scroll and familiar. The psion gets one feat at first level and gets to choose a psionic feat, metapsionic feat, or item creation feat.

2 vs 1, the 1 has more choices though. For Kri'Loroth it is again 2 vs 1, and again the 1 has more choices.

So the human is still king in his number of choices and different builds it can help directly, through the bonus skill points working immediately to help and the feat being able to be chosen from a massive list.

With the 20th level halfling fighter vs the 20th level human fighter I would think that the halfling would go a very different route for what they are good at. If they both tried to do exactly the same thing then definately one of them is going to come up short (ha).

The halfling is likely to have a much higher touch ac vs the human, and more likely to use reduce in combat to increase his prowess rather than enlarge like the human (anyone else see the insane build with the ranged halfling fighter? Massive bonus to attack, he basically ignored base weapon damage and just added on modifiers, but it was very impressive, he could hit anything)

I think you are better off making them a largeish medium race and droping the wirey/weak build. They can still be 8' hulking brutes and be medium. A large race has a reach of 10' and takes up a 10x10 square, and it seems that you don't seem to want any of those things.

You can always try +1 and 1 HD, that might work to your satisfaction. But I think that it's not enough.

If they were a medium race then they would need other penalties to cover the bonuses and/or taking away of a lot of bonuses. Plus, the creature is supposed to stand at an average of 3 meters tall. Not all large creatuers have a reach of 10' however, so there is already precident for that

I'll look over how much impact having stats 2 points higher will do (I use a different epic ruleset, so that wont matter) and the +1 to all skill checks.

Thanks for your time bront!

 

[Bront]

If they were a medium race then they would need other penalties to cover the bonuses and/or taking away of a lot of bonuses. Plus, the creature is supposed to stand at an average of 3 meters tall. Not all large creatuers have a reach of 10' however, so there is already precident for that

I'll look over how much impact having stats 2 points higher will do (I use a different epic ruleset, so that wont matter) and the +1 to all skill checks.

Thanks for your time bront!

Not to say it's not out there, but where are large creatures without reach that aren't quadropeds? I don't see any in the SRD (though I wasn't look that hard). I was pretty sure the definition of a large creature gave it reach, but I was unable to find that either. Also, I think 3 meters (~10 ft) is in the tweener range. You're using the large and wirey/weak build as a balancing factor, when honestly, I think it just washes. They still get some advantages of being large (Extra carrying capacity, In theory reach, thou you are specificly saying no, and I know there was at least one more that I can't think of off the top of my head).

Because, for some reason, this isn't in my version of the SRD, I give you a link to HD Increases effecting CR. Basicly, you're saying that all the bonuses your race gets are only worth 1/2 a level, and your race without a class level of any kind is simply a 1/2 CR chalenge before racial modifications. Do you think that is accurate?

 

[Scion]

I cant seem to find the designators for where the sizes break down for some reason, I have seen them before. If I remember correctly then somewhere between 6 and 7 feet is the breakoff, but it is not a hard and fast line.

Still though, the Ogre is pretty firmly in Large territory and he is 'between 9 and 10 feet tall' and 3 meters fall pretty much right in the middle of that.

Large with pretty much none of the benefits is definately a penalty however. Extra carrying capacity is a fairly minor boost (especially once the characters can get a few bags of holding or a hewards handy haversack.. doesnt every character get an HHH at some point? I know the group I dm for every character bought one, they are just too handy with the speedy recovery of items, low cost, and lots of carrying power) and is cancled to some degree by having to pay double price for armor.

So, there is double carrying capacity, double armor price, penalty to hit and AC, and possibly squeezing rules. What other benefits/penalties are there?


For the second part you are looking at the increasing monsters hd for increase in CR. Note that this system breaks down at several points and so is tricky to use (if you have a featureless blob character who doesnt deal any damage but has a CR of 1 for whatever reason and you add 500 hd to it that doesnt make it an epic monster.. this is an exaggeration, but it shows that there are places where it ceases to work).

Still though, from what I can tell you are asking me if I feel that:
Abberation, 2hd

is worth 1/2 CR all on its own? Not really. After all, he would look like this:

Abberation
HD: 2d8 (avg 9)
Init: +0
AC: 10 (F:10, T: 10)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+1
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Speed: 30'
Reach: 5'
Melee: +1, Quarterstaff (d6)
Ranged: +1, Heavy Crossbow (d10)
Feats: 1 any
Skills: 10 skill points

Which I guess could qualify for CR 1/2, but it seems more like a CR 1/3 or so to me.

After all of his racial abilities are tossed in on top of the hd and he is fleshed out I assume that the whole package is CR 2, just like a phb race with 2 class levels.

Which, using the 'improving monsters' section would mean that the racial abilities are worth +1.5 CR.


This is what he would look like in a psuedo monster write up. I say psuedo because technically he would gain some things as a race from the write up, which is not the actual case.

Kri'Loroth
Large Abberation
HD: 2d8+2 +6(feat) (avg 17)
Init: +1
AC: 12 (+2 leather armor, +1 dex, -1 size) (F:11, T: 10)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+2
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Speed: 30'
Reach: 5'
Melee: +1, Quarterstaff (d6+1)
Ranged: +1, Heavy Crossbow (d10)
Feats: 1 any, 2 psionic (typical feats..hmm.. psionic weapon, up the walls, psionic body)
Skills: 15 racial skill points (he has 5 class skills, so we'll just say 3 points in each)
Special: Low light vision, weak build, 2 PP, psi-ability (doesnt do anything), psychic voice
CR: 2

Say that he gets the jump on the party, he charges, expends focus and pops up a psionic weapon. He hits someone in the party (+3 to hit) and deals damage (3d6+1) and crits somehow (4d6+2) = avg 16 damage. Pretty impressive smack there. If it was against one of the party tanks then they are still up, if against a lower hd class without a good con bonus they are unconscious but likely far from dead. Now the rest of the party gets to go. AC 10, 17 hp guys dissapear pretty fast, he isnt likely to live out the round.

If he does live then his AC pops back up to 12 but his damage drops to d6+1 with only a +1 to attack.

Does that sound pretty CR 2? It does to me, although not a really tough one If he switches out these feats for some others he can shift his emphasis to something else, but stat blocks usually arent written up that way.

He'd have pretty much zero chance against an ogre (CR 3) which makes sense.

Does this seem pretty accurate for what you meant bront?

 

[Snowy]

the size bonus to grapple checks is a bonus not to be sniffed at.

 

[Scion]

Do you mean the medium size bonus of +0?

remember, this guy doesnt get the +4 for being large, wiry build and all.