Arkhandus
First Post
I've edited my above post, it just took some time to do the calculations and such. Since it takes so much time to actually type it out and calculate everything, it isn't always worth the bother. It's quicker and easier to do a mental run-through of stats and such that I know or that I recall nearly well enough. And, I just realized I forgot that Weak Build means using a Medium weapon instead of Large, but I don't want to go back and edit my post yet again.......it makes little difference anyway.
While I believe an eye for an eye is sometimes a suitable policy, it isn't always; goading people on when they already think you're rude will only make them continue to seethe at you and waste your time, which does nobody any good. If someone kicks me in the shin I'll kick them back; but if they just throw an insult at me, I see no need to respond in kind unless they really, really deserve it, because I'm used to insults and they're pathetic.
Scion, you have nothing to back up your claim that a big bonus to one ability score is exponentially better, because statistically it isn't, and I've seen such things as half-ogres and whatnot in play at very low level, many times, and I am familiar with the significance of a big Strength.
I never dismissed the low-level comparisons. Getting 2 racial HD to start with, even if they got a +1 LA with it, would not seriously hamper the character at low level. Being able to manifest a few more 1st-level powers per day is of little import at 4th-level or so, so missing out on 2-3 manifester levels is no biggie for the most part. A crossbow will deal plenty of damage at that level, and really they're better off taking proficiency in a greatsword and mauling foes with their decent HP and good Strength, until they gain enough psionic levels to be a formidable manifester. Having 2/3rds or 3/4s the number of HD as the rest of the party isn't really a paper tiger, it's like playing the rogue or the wizard rather than the fighter, and really, the Kri'Loroth are better-built to play such roles anyway.
Your comparison with the half-giant is flawed, by the way. The Kri'Loroth is tougher and more talented in most stuff than the half-giant, and lacks only 1 class level over the H-G, but actually has 1 more hit die than the H-G. You grossly overestimate the damage boost from +2 Strength and wielding Large weapons, I've seen half-ogres do much worse than an XPH half-giant ever will, and even half-ogres have their share of weaknesses. I've also seen the effects of a 10-foot reach, which you underestimate, and the -1 attack/AC for being size large is fairly unimportant (the Kri'Loroth's Str/Dex bonuses make up for it anyhow).
The Kri'Loroth receives at least as many extra PP as the half-giant, and only grows more with level (their 2 racial HD mean they get +2 PP minimum).
While I said that psionic feats are generally more powerful, and it's true, it's not always so, of course. Psionic Endowment blows compared to Spell Focus, for instance. But other stuff is pretty powerful. Psionic weapon? Greater psionic weapon? Deep impact? Fell shot? Several psionic feats grant larger boosts for the cost of a mere feat, and psionic focus is of little import with many of these. Spending a round, or a move action with Psionic Meditation, is not that bad in many of these cases (at least with PM, which can make it pretty easy to blast through stuff with stuff like Empower Power + any power followed by Quicken Power after a move-action psionic focus).
3.5 certainly made some psionic feats weaker, but generally many of them are more powerful in some ways. Given the variety and potency of them, their slightly limited selection is not nearly so limiting as you overestimate it to be. For a race designed to be strong psionically, 2 bonus psionic feats is pretty significant, but neither is it so significant as some earlier posters think it is. Psionic feats may be a bit more limited in scope, but they're often more potent in some way, and thus gaining 1 bonus psionic feat is only slightly less great than getting 1 bonus feat of any type, but for a race that is naturally psionic, they're more useful. A non-psionic race has to actually bother taking a psionic class in order to qualify for such feats, which would make the feats less valuable, so for instance while humans have the option of taking psionic feats, they wouldn't actually meet the prerequisites unless they take the right class. Kri'Loroth are automatically psionic and thus qualify immediately, so they can go right into Fighter, Wizard, or Rogue for instance and have 2 very useful psionic feats. Psionic Weapon and Psionic Charge, perhaps, for example.
Having a bonus to all ability scores isn't something to be sneezed at, because if it were just the same as +2 to three ability scores, you wouldn't be giving them +2 to everything. Even infrequently-used ability scores for a character can be significant sometimes. The wizard can't always fly, sometimes he has to climb or swim, for instance, which means relying on Strength skills.
Using feats as a baseline for measuring classes and races is the best measurement we have available. I'm not saying all feats are worth their opportunity cost, but generally, a houseruled minor variation on a feat would suffice well enough even if the original feat is a bit unbalanced. Only an idiot would say that +2 Str is equivalent to infinite Weapon Focus feats, for instance. No one will ever use an infinite number of weapons. Practically, +2 Str grants a melee attack bonus similar in worth to the average number of melee weapons used by characters, which is something like 2 (warriors may use more, but others are likely to use perhaps melee touch attacks and something like a dagger or quarterstaff, or they'll use something like a spiked gauntlet for close-in fighting and a greatsword the rest of the time). Unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and melee touch attacks count for this purpose, as they're relevant, so even mages and psions have a use for Strength sometimes even if they don't directly use it much. I base my calculations on averages and typical ranges, not stupidly broad generalizations.
Oh, and if you think these comparisons are invalid, you're an idiot. Sorry, but if you can't accept some manner of comparison, you're an idiot to think anyone could ever measure the worth of something in the game. There's no way to measure something if you think that every method of comparison is without merit. It's aggravating to see how casually and stupidly you dismiss enlightened opinions from folks just because you don't see how their calculations and comparisons hold any value. You refuse to do any of this yourself, so you just keep wasting our time trying to show you the light. And then you say "I just don't think that has any real value, it's pointless." I think you fail to see your own broken logic. Otherwise you never would've started this thread on the false premise that you wanted folk's analysis and such. And now, I'm degenerating into frank insults out of disgust at your horrid, abominable false logic, because I cannot stand fools who think themselves logical yet stubbornly refuse to see anyone else's true logic. Thanks for wasting a few hours of my time on your arrogantly stubborn and foolish thread.
While I believe an eye for an eye is sometimes a suitable policy, it isn't always; goading people on when they already think you're rude will only make them continue to seethe at you and waste your time, which does nobody any good. If someone kicks me in the shin I'll kick them back; but if they just throw an insult at me, I see no need to respond in kind unless they really, really deserve it, because I'm used to insults and they're pathetic.
Scion, you have nothing to back up your claim that a big bonus to one ability score is exponentially better, because statistically it isn't, and I've seen such things as half-ogres and whatnot in play at very low level, many times, and I am familiar with the significance of a big Strength.
I never dismissed the low-level comparisons. Getting 2 racial HD to start with, even if they got a +1 LA with it, would not seriously hamper the character at low level. Being able to manifest a few more 1st-level powers per day is of little import at 4th-level or so, so missing out on 2-3 manifester levels is no biggie for the most part. A crossbow will deal plenty of damage at that level, and really they're better off taking proficiency in a greatsword and mauling foes with their decent HP and good Strength, until they gain enough psionic levels to be a formidable manifester. Having 2/3rds or 3/4s the number of HD as the rest of the party isn't really a paper tiger, it's like playing the rogue or the wizard rather than the fighter, and really, the Kri'Loroth are better-built to play such roles anyway.
Your comparison with the half-giant is flawed, by the way. The Kri'Loroth is tougher and more talented in most stuff than the half-giant, and lacks only 1 class level over the H-G, but actually has 1 more hit die than the H-G. You grossly overestimate the damage boost from +2 Strength and wielding Large weapons, I've seen half-ogres do much worse than an XPH half-giant ever will, and even half-ogres have their share of weaknesses. I've also seen the effects of a 10-foot reach, which you underestimate, and the -1 attack/AC for being size large is fairly unimportant (the Kri'Loroth's Str/Dex bonuses make up for it anyhow).
The Kri'Loroth receives at least as many extra PP as the half-giant, and only grows more with level (their 2 racial HD mean they get +2 PP minimum).
While I said that psionic feats are generally more powerful, and it's true, it's not always so, of course. Psionic Endowment blows compared to Spell Focus, for instance. But other stuff is pretty powerful. Psionic weapon? Greater psionic weapon? Deep impact? Fell shot? Several psionic feats grant larger boosts for the cost of a mere feat, and psionic focus is of little import with many of these. Spending a round, or a move action with Psionic Meditation, is not that bad in many of these cases (at least with PM, which can make it pretty easy to blast through stuff with stuff like Empower Power + any power followed by Quicken Power after a move-action psionic focus).
3.5 certainly made some psionic feats weaker, but generally many of them are more powerful in some ways. Given the variety and potency of them, their slightly limited selection is not nearly so limiting as you overestimate it to be. For a race designed to be strong psionically, 2 bonus psionic feats is pretty significant, but neither is it so significant as some earlier posters think it is. Psionic feats may be a bit more limited in scope, but they're often more potent in some way, and thus gaining 1 bonus psionic feat is only slightly less great than getting 1 bonus feat of any type, but for a race that is naturally psionic, they're more useful. A non-psionic race has to actually bother taking a psionic class in order to qualify for such feats, which would make the feats less valuable, so for instance while humans have the option of taking psionic feats, they wouldn't actually meet the prerequisites unless they take the right class. Kri'Loroth are automatically psionic and thus qualify immediately, so they can go right into Fighter, Wizard, or Rogue for instance and have 2 very useful psionic feats. Psionic Weapon and Psionic Charge, perhaps, for example.
Having a bonus to all ability scores isn't something to be sneezed at, because if it were just the same as +2 to three ability scores, you wouldn't be giving them +2 to everything. Even infrequently-used ability scores for a character can be significant sometimes. The wizard can't always fly, sometimes he has to climb or swim, for instance, which means relying on Strength skills.
Using feats as a baseline for measuring classes and races is the best measurement we have available. I'm not saying all feats are worth their opportunity cost, but generally, a houseruled minor variation on a feat would suffice well enough even if the original feat is a bit unbalanced. Only an idiot would say that +2 Str is equivalent to infinite Weapon Focus feats, for instance. No one will ever use an infinite number of weapons. Practically, +2 Str grants a melee attack bonus similar in worth to the average number of melee weapons used by characters, which is something like 2 (warriors may use more, but others are likely to use perhaps melee touch attacks and something like a dagger or quarterstaff, or they'll use something like a spiked gauntlet for close-in fighting and a greatsword the rest of the time). Unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and melee touch attacks count for this purpose, as they're relevant, so even mages and psions have a use for Strength sometimes even if they don't directly use it much. I base my calculations on averages and typical ranges, not stupidly broad generalizations.
Oh, and if you think these comparisons are invalid, you're an idiot. Sorry, but if you can't accept some manner of comparison, you're an idiot to think anyone could ever measure the worth of something in the game. There's no way to measure something if you think that every method of comparison is without merit. It's aggravating to see how casually and stupidly you dismiss enlightened opinions from folks just because you don't see how their calculations and comparisons hold any value. You refuse to do any of this yourself, so you just keep wasting our time trying to show you the light. And then you say "I just don't think that has any real value, it's pointless." I think you fail to see your own broken logic. Otherwise you never would've started this thread on the false premise that you wanted folk's analysis and such. And now, I'm degenerating into frank insults out of disgust at your horrid, abominable false logic, because I cannot stand fools who think themselves logical yet stubbornly refuse to see anyone else's true logic. Thanks for wasting a few hours of my time on your arrogantly stubborn and foolish thread.
