new race

[Scion]

Why bother asking for input scion? And certainly why bother responding?

I want input, but I dont want or need people overreacting or spouting random comments and pretending they are being helpful. (this is not an attack on anyone in particular, but it has come up a few times that I am not looking for input when I am just looking for different input than, 'my gut tells me blah, and my gut never lies to me!')

Now, I know you could help if you wanted to, I am sure you are good at what you are do. However, you have 'not' shown it in this thread so far.

I'd much rather have your help than not have it, but if the help is going to come in the form it did of your first post you can keep it.

Would you like to make some workups/breakdowns? I would appreciate useful help.

 

[Scion]

Here is what the Savage Species rules have to say on estimating Level Adjustment:

Unbalanced Ability Scores: The Ability Score Equivalencies table on page 173 in the DMG shows how to balance ability scores. A monster that does not follow those rules gains at least a +1 level adjustment. A higher level adjustment is appropriate if the monster's ability score bonuses (especially strength or con modifiers) are particularly high. Not having a Constitution score is actually a benefit, since a monster without one can ignore most effects requiring a Fortitude save.

Size: A Large creature gets no level adjustment for size. Its level adjustment is based on reach instead.

Natural Armor Bonus: N/A

Speed: N/A

Natural Weapons: N/A

Reach: Beyond 5 feet, every additional 5 feet of reach is worth an additional +1 level adjustment. A monster with a 10ft reach gets +1 level adjustment. A monster with a 15ft reach gets +2 level adjustment.

Skills and Feats: A monster with three or more racial bonuses on skill checks gets a +1 level adjustment. Likewise, two or more bonus feats because of race gain the creature a +1 level adjustment.

Special Attacks and Special Qualities: The trickiest features of level adjustment, these features require special thought. A long list of features does not automatically grant a level adjustment, since monsters can generally only use one special attack per round. A single feature is not always worth a level adjustment, since characters of the standard races can often achieve the same result through their class features, magic items, or spells. In general, a special attack or special quality that a character of a standard race cannot duplicate is worth a +1 level adjustment. Below are several specific examples to illustrate how to assign level adjustments to creatures in the introductory category.
Ability Score Damage: Worth a +1 unless affected ability score is Con, then worth a +2
Blindsight: +1 level adjustment
Poison: +1 level adjustment, unless poison affects Con, then +2
Scent: +1 level adjustment
Spell Like Abilities: If a creature can use any spell-like ability at will, then it gets a +1 level adjustment
Spellcasting Ability: If a creature can cast spells at a higher level than its hit dice, then it gets a +1 level adjustment.
Spell Resistance: +1 level adjustment
Resistance to Energy: +0.5 per energy type, rounded up. So one or two resistances is worth a +1 level adjustment, 3 or 4 is worth +2, etc.

As you are using Racial Hit Dice, I would offer the following conversion into LA. Each Racial Hit Dice is the equivalent +0.5 LA. Therefore, you could replace the 2 Racial Hit Dice with a +1 LA and it should be roughly equivalent. Of course, you could always keep the Racial Hit Dice instead.

After all of this is done, you apply the acid test. Which is to say, you put together a character with a class level (which is favored by the ability bonuses the race gets) using a base race (human is fine) and a build using this race to compare, and increase or reduce the LA until the choice between the two is no longer a clear-cut one.

So, according to the above, your race should have the following:

Unbalanced Ability Scores - I'm tempted to go with a +2 just for this, but let's go with +1.
Reach - +1 for reach.
Skill and Feats - +1 for the two bonus feats.
Special Attacks and Special Qualities - Your free overchanneling at will would count for a +1, IMO.

So that's a total of +4, or with my suggestion about Racial Hit Dice, 2 RHD +3 LA. Now, it doesn't really seem playable (or worth) that much. So a reduction is in order. As I don't have my books on me to create the characters, I can't go any farther than this. Perhaps if we had an ECL 20 human psychic warrior and ECL 20 Kri'Loroth psychic warrior to compare this might help.

This had to take a long time to type so I'm going to quote it all (that way, for me at least, the whole thing is on page 2).

The biggest thing I am confused about with your post is the acid test part. Everything else follows the guidelines well, it comes out to be roughly 3.5 at best (the free augmentation only works if you have the power and a high enough manifestor level to take advantage of it, which means a minimum total level of 5, 2 hd+3class levels, before one of the two can even be used).

Then the acid test is applied, which is exactly what I did above. Going by that it looks like it is balanced right now. You dont even need any books to look over them, do you feel that one race choice is clearly superior to the other in any of the examples?

 

[Scion]

* Proficient with all natural and simple weapons

He has no weapons nor is he proficient with all simple weapons. I am unsure what to put down for proficiencies, but it wouldnt be more than 3 simple weapons (possibly: dagger, quarterstaff, crossbow)

Also not proficient with armor nor shields.

* Immune to spells that affect Humanoids (Charm Person, Hold Person, etc.)

This should go under both advantages and disadvantages. After all, it makes them immune to 'enlarge person'. I dont know about your games, but I see that spell cast much more often than any other humanoid effecting spell that I can think of, especially later on when everyone is tossing around hold monster and you still cant benefit from a nice little enlarge person.

2 Abberation Hit Dice - I'm hesitant to list these as much of a disadvantage, but am listing them because you claim they are. These hit dice give you 2d8 + 2xCon mod hit points, +1 BAB, Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3, and 10 + (5*Int mod) in skill points.

While it is better than LA it is worse than actual class levels. Being worse than class levels makes it a disadvantage, just because it isnt as horrible as LA does not change that fact

 

[Nifft]

I want input, but I dont want or need people overreacting or spouting random comments and pretending they are being helpful.
[ ... ]
Would you like to make some workups/breakdowns? I would appreciate useful help.

All feedback is useful if you're smart enough to interpret it correctly.

No, I'm not particularly in the mood to spoon-feed you balanced race design.

Do better work, get better comments. Act snide, get snarky responses.

Best of luck to you! -- N

 

[IcyCool]

He has no weapons nor is he proficient with all simple weapons. I am unsure what to put down for proficiencies, but it wouldnt be more than 3 simple weapons (possibly: dagger, quarterstaff, crossbow)

Also not proficient with armor nor shields.

Abberations, provided they are humanoid in shape, are proficient with all Simple Weapons.

This should go under both advantages and disadvantages. After all, it makes them immune to 'enlarge person'. I dont know about your games, but I see that spell cast much more often than any other humanoid effecting spell that I can think of, especially later on when everyone is tossing around hold monster and you still cant benefit from a nice little enlarge person.

I disagree, this is firmly in the Advantage territory. However, this isn't listed in the "things that grant LA", so I'm going to have it slide for now. Out of curiousity, why didn't you just make them Humanoid?

While it is better than LA it is worse than actual class levels. Being worse than class levels makes it a disadvantage, just because it isnt as horrible as LA does not change that fact

Which is why I put it in the Disadvantages section with the note.

 

[IcyCool]

The biggest thing I am confused about with your post is the acid test part. Everything else follows the guidelines well, it comes out to be roughly 3.5 at best (the free augmentation only works if you have the power and a high enough manifestor level to take advantage of it, which means a minimum total level of 5, 2 hd+3class levels, before one of the two can even be used).

Then the acid test is applied, which is exactly what I did above. Going by that it looks like it is balanced right now. You dont even need any books to look over them, do you feel that one race choice is clearly superior to the other in any of the examples?

Two things:

1. How do you come up with only 3.5 instead of 4? Remember, you can't just assume that the character will never get past ECL 3.

2. Do you have Savage Species? If not, I'll describe the acid test in more detail.

Also, in case I didn't mention it before, I did look at your comparisons. I even commented on them. And I would take the Kri'Loroth every time in the case of the psychic warrior, as it is roughly equivalent to a 3rd level Human psychic warrior, and it will only get better with every level. I lack the material to show you this, and I can only tell you that it is not based on my gut. Level adjusted creatures get better and better as levels increase. The paper tiger effect wears off the higher you get. It is my recommendation that you should compare 2 ECL 20 characters.

 

[IcyCool]

Less of an issue sure, but still there. Always in the background being just a little behind pretty much everywhere. The only thing special about them really is that they have 2 +2's, no -2's and resistance to energy in 3 places. Likely the two best classes to play with this guy are paladin and cleric. So, with using one of the best choices he is still behind in nearly every way. Early on potentially fatally so, later on in a whole lot of little ways. More than 1/3 of the time the bonus to saves isnt there, behind by a feat 1/3 of the time, by a stat point 1/4 of the time, 1 point off of all skills, BAB, HP, etc. From a power perspective, not roleplaying as that is a completely different beast, the majority of the time I'd rather play the human.

As the Aasimar is about average for a +1 LA creature, you should think about your last sentence, and look at your creation again. Your creation should elicit the same response in you as you have to the Aasimar.

 

[Scion]

All feedback is useful if you're smart enough to interpret it correctly.

False. You came on here and screamed, 'BROKEN!'. That is not helpful. Your other comments were no more helpful than that.

There is a great deal of feedback which is less than useful. It just so happens that yours in this thread falls well into the category of 'useless'.

Do better work, get better comments. Act snide, get snarky responses.

This applies to you much more than me in this thread. I have posted reaonable responses and interpretations and you put up snide and skarky remarks without backing. You have done no good work.

Please come back only if you are going to contribute usefully.

Of course, I cant stop you, I am just asking nicely. So, do better work on your criticisms and I will be able to comment to yours better. Please leave aside the snide and snarky remarks such as were in your first post.

 

[Scion]

Abberations, provided they are humanoid in shape, are proficient with all Simple Weapons.

They also generally have darkvison Neither is the case here however. I'll have to edit it in at some point.

I disagree, this is firmly in the Advantage territory. However, this isn't listed in the "things that grant LA", so I'm going to have it slide for now. Out of curiousity, why didn't you just make them Humanoid?

Early on I can see a point being made that it is more of a benefit, although I would disagree. Later on it is definately more of a detriment than a benefit however.

I see people who are even of medium to high level casting or drinking an enlarge person spell when it is needed. I dont know about super high levels, but I do know that charm person and hold person arent used much at higher levels for a variety of reasons (save too low, lots of creatures immune by default, much better choices for spells, etc)

As for the type:
aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three
vs
Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak

The aberration type definately seems closer to the mark.

Which is why I put it in the Disadvantages section with the note.

I made the comment because you said, 'I'm hesitant to list these as much of a disadvantage, but am listing them because you claim they are.' Just explaining my reasoning why I feel it is a disadvantage to help shore up some of the hesitancy is all

 

[Scion]

Two things:

1. How do you come up with only 3.5 instead of 4? Remember, you can't just assume that the character will never get past ECL 3.

It is a fairly minor benefit that only works when other resources are spent. I just couldnt bring myself to put a full +1 on it for LA.

If you had a creature who had no other racial features (ie medium, no special talents, etc) except for just that one ability would they be LA +1? Now, of course that is what the acid test is there to mitigate, but still.. I just couldnt say +1 LA for an ability that takes a number of other resources to be able to take advantage of.

2. Do you have Savage Species?

yep, interesting book. It tries to do something very difficult and succeeds sometimes and fails others.

Also, in case I didn't mention it before, I did look at your comparisons. I even commented on them. And I would take the Kri'Loroth every time in the case of the psychic warrior, as it is roughly equivalent to a 3rd level Human psychic warrior, and it will only get better with every level. I lack the material to show you this, and I can only tell you that it is not based on my gut. Level adjusted creatures get better and better as levels increase. The paper tiger effect wears off the higher you get. It is my recommendation that you should compare 2 ECL 20 characters.

Roughly equivalent is the goal, but while it is ahead in some ways it is definately behind in others.

The, 'it only gets better with every level' has yet to be shown or proven. I know that you lack the material, I am waiting for someone who apparently feels free to say much the same to prove it. If no one feels like showing anything then I'll run with the baseline, which says they are roughly equivalent as you have said.

Gut is all well and good, but it is too easy to fool the guy (see mystic theurge example).

LA creatures start off mostly worthless and some of it becomes less noticeable later on, but it is still there in one form or another.

Looking back at the psychic warrior examples again one of them had a manifestor level of 3 vs a manifestor level of 1. Now, later on the ratio indeed gets smaller, but the difference always stays the same. At low levels this can be incredibly bad, but the same is true for high levels. Personal buffs lasting for shorter amounts of time, having access to fewer, being able to augment them less, and being easier to dispel all add up to being worse at that.

Going to the soulknife example the human is way ahead in just about every way.

For the psion this guy is looking more like the start of a gish class than a psion.. he really isnt very good at being a pure manifestor.. so there goes his favored class.. he has stuff to make himself better at it, but he wont be as good at it overall as people without the hd.

That would be the point however.

If there is a place where the race I posted here is definately way in the lead I'd love to see it, that would give a place to work off of. The only example so far is of them being pretty much even.