new race

[IcyCool]

I will also point out two things in your psychic warrior comparison. You state that the skills and feats for the Krilorth are worse.

The Krilorth gets the same number of skill points as the human (and skills are one of the human's benefits). While you don't get the psychic warrior skills as class skills right off, I'd hardly call this worse. At best, I'd call it a wash. (Late access to psychic warrior skills vs getting the same number of skill points as a human).

The Krilorth gets the same number of feats as the human (this being the other big benefit of being human). The human gets 3 any feats and 2 psychic warrior feats. The Krilorth gets 2 any feats, 1 psychic warrior feat, and 2 psychic feats. Are psychic feats terrible in comparison to regular feats and psychic warrior feats? Again, at best I'd call it a wash (Same number of feats with different restrictions vs. getting the same number of feats as a human).

 

[IcyCool]

I'll check back through the weekend, looking forward to your builds

I don't have the Psionic Handbook, my computer is down, and I'm going to see my father this weekend for Father's day. I'm getting married on Tuesday of next week.

In short, I've got a few other things on my plate. If I get the chance, I'll snag the XPH from a friend of mine and see if I can't squeeze in time to make the builds. Otherwise it will be a while. As you seemed to have been able to whip those two up pretty quickly, I figured it would be close to trivial for you to up them to ECL 17.

I wasn't trying to be lazy, honest.

 

[Scion]

I will also point out two things in your psychic warrior comparison. You state that the skills and feats for the Krilorth are worse.

The Krilorth gets the same number of skill points as the human (and skills are one of the human's benefits). While you don't get the psychic warrior skills as class skills right off, I'd hardly call this worse. At best, I'd call it a wash. (Late access to psychic warrior skills vs getting the same number of skill points as a human).

The Krilorth gets the same number of feats as the human (this being the other big benefit of being human). The human gets 3 any feats and 2 psychic warrior feats. The Krilorth gets 2 any feats, 1 psychic warrior feat, and 2 psychic feats. Are psychic feats terrible in comparison to regular feats and psychic warrior feats? Again, at best I'd call it a wash (Same number of feats with different restrictions vs. getting the same number of feats as a human).

The racial skills list is very small, meaning a lack of choice. meaning that the straight psychic warrior is better off (better choices earlier on, even with the same number of points).

For the feats, while they have the same total number the 'choices' for those feats is very important. That is why it is apparently ok to give one class 2 feats that are preselected and another 1 feat that they get to choose from a large list.

So, the first is close it is definately a 'better' for the psychic warrior.

The second is a choice between 3 any feats and 2 from two lists (fighter or psionic) the second is 2 any, 1 from two lists (fighter or psionic) and 2 from the smallest list (psionic only). This cuts into what feat chains you can get and when. Definately a 'better' for the guy with the much larger selection and variety of choices.

If you had a class who was given a feat and got to select between 5 feats and a class who was given a feat but only had 2 choices, who would you rate as 'better'? They have the same number sure, but the first is much better in terms of choices.


While I can see how they could be called a wash I dont agree. More choices for amounts to more variety and more potential. They are close, but definately deserving of a 'better'.

Also, I pretty much called the +1damage/-1 to hit a wash, although personally I feel it is a big penalty for the guy who has to make this trade. I'd much rather have the +1 to hit back for that point of damage gone. I think that this one is much closer than the skill points and feats though.

Still, in the end, do you feel that each of the builds is roughly equivalent? better in some areas, worse in others, but I dont think dangerously so for any of them.

 

[Scion]

I don't have the Psionic Handbook, my computer is down, and I'm going to see my father this weekend for Father's day. I'm getting married on Tuesday of next week.

In short, I've got a few other things on my plate. If I get the chance, I'll snag the XPH from a friend of mine and see if I can't squeeze in time to make the builds. Otherwise it will be a while. As you seemed to have been able to whip those two up pretty quickly, I figured it would be close to trivial for you to up them to ECL 17.

I wasn't trying to be lazy, honest.

I wasnt trying to point any fingers, sorry! I just feel that if someone is going to state that they feel strongly one way or the other they should give the reasoning as to why, especially when they state that a possibly complicated build will help to show it

I could do it pretty fast, but I am on the wrong side of the table. I want someone who feels that the guy is unbalanced as written to do it. That way there isnt any chance of me pushing too hard unconsciously to make it look balanced. I figure if someone who feels the race needs to be weaker does it then it is much more likely they will either be neutral or favor the other side accidentaly as much as I would, either way it would be a view point other than my own to look at. With numbers attatched!

 

[kanithardm]

Where is the +3 LA the way i calculate it that is what you should get.

 

[Bront]

Hey bront, you said that a Level adjustment +3 with no racial hd should be where this guy is? I get the definate impression you have never played with LA creatures, especially high LA ones. It is 'very' difficult to use much LA without creating a massive paper tiger syndrome. +3 with no hd would be a prime example of this, the guy above would need so much more stuff to overcome this that he would either wind up being broken or worthless, generally at the same time.

With that said though, your suggestions basically create a completely different race that loses all of the flavor this one is going for. I appreciate the suggestions, and if I need another psionic race at some point that would be a good place to start. I am trying to figure out how to modify it overall to keep the flavor while making it balanced in what it does. I am going to do a write up in a few moments hopefully to show where I think it is currently sitting.


I am not sure why but it seems like several of the comments basically say to change the hd into LA or simply ignore that extra hd still poses a pretty big opportunity cost. HD and abilities tends to be 'much' easier overall to balance however. This guy is effectively always going to be 2 manifestor levels behind the core race guy, which means way less higher powered options for the racial beanies, along with not getting the beanies of some other race. Trying to balance the oppotunty costs vs rewards is difficult

I fully understand the LA costs, and find that in most cases, you are better off being an LA 0 race than even an LA 1 race. Personaly I generaly dislike things that have ECLs, but, that doesn't mean I don't know how to balance them.

Ultimately, balance is an oppinion. You were looking for a lower ECL, so I suggested something similar that I thought fit the flavor a bit more. Currently, what I see that you have there has very little flavor, just "They are better psionics than everyone else, but they don't have any ECL and minimal racial HD." Perhaps I'm just missing the description, but they look overpowered and generic to me.

My first reaction to the race is Ubermunkin (I've seen worse though). And I gave you my oppinion on how I fould fix it and try to keep a similar idea to what you thought. However, I realize you are not trying to munkin them, but tweek them and get other's oppinions on them.

Keep in mind, that any races with ECL/LA will be inferior to normal LA 0 characters at lower levels, but at higher levels, those initial sacrifices will wear off (Try making them all 20th level, see how that plays out). The fact that they currently only get 2 racial HD and no LA means that they effectively don't loose out on skill points (yes, they do a little, but not to the extent you do with an LA) or HD, and in fact, some times those racial HD can giveyou more HP than normal.

Compair them to the LA +1 races in the XPH SRD. How do you think they compair? Are they not that much worse than what you have to make your race compairable to them as a no LA and +2 HD?

It doesn't seem like i'm the only one that thinks they may need some LA. I think the problem is that simple numbers can't tell how effective some of their extra powers will be, especialy at higher levels.

 

[Scion]

Where is the +3 LA the way i calculate it that is what you should get.

Wha..? Can you rephrase please?

 

[Scion]

I fully understand the LA costs, and find that in most cases, you are better off being an LA 0 race than even an LA 1 race. Personaly I generaly dislike things that have ECLs, but, that doesn't mean I don't know how to balance them.

+3 is 'huge', especially for this guy. The halfdragon has a +3 and he gets a lot more than the guy above. The +8 to str alone is worth a whole lot more than the +2 to every stat, and the halfdragon still has more stat bonuses besides.

Ultimately, balance is an oppinion.

While this is true to a degree, we do have something to compare with: The base books.

The comparisons I gave above use them and I think it speaks pretty clearly for that level. If others feel that there are other levels where the abilities will shift hard in one direction or another I'd love to see them.

If people are just going to give their opinion without anything to back it up (such as, 'I just feel that there are too many numbers there, cut out half of them and toss on a level adjustment and we'll talk') then I'd like them to look over my examples first to see where they think they have gone wrong or are overpowered.

Perhaps I'm just missing the description, but they look overpowered and generic to me.

Flavor text is completely unimportant for balance discussions. Rp benefits or drawbacks should not be used to balance actual numbers (this could be done on a campaign by campaign basis, but those are special cases).

My first reaction to the race is Ubermunkin (I've seen worse though). And I gave you my oppinion on how I fould fix it and try to keep a similar idea to what you thought. However, I realize you are not trying to munkin them, but tweek them and get other's oppinions on them.

I have seen some people call various races in the phb the 'ubermunchkin' race (actually, i have seen them all called something like that at one point or another, even the halforc, as crazy as that sounds).

First impressions can be right or wrong, but it is always good to actually look a little deeper

Compair them to the LA +1 races in the XPH SRD. How do you think they compair? Are they not that much worse than what you have to make your race compairable to them as a no LA and +2 HD?

Since many of the LA +1 are only that way because they either have only a slight advantage that it is felt shouldnt be on a LA +0 race or mislabeled I dont think it is a valid comparison. Along with LA +1 being very different than 2 hd gone. The two hd is very similar to LA +2 but it avoids the paper tiger syndrome much easier.

It doesn't seem like i'm the only one that thinks they may need some LA. I think the problem is that simple numbers can't tell how effective some of their extra powers will be, especialy at higher levels.

Actually, in the case of this guy, I think the numbers can do it very well. There arent many etheral things floating around (like being able to use some uber power but only once per day to completely skew the comparison) and everything essentiall is a number.

Also, people can feel it needs whatever LA they feel like, but without something to back it up (as in, what is making them feel that way based on something actually in the game) there isnt any difference between, 'I think it needs a level adjustment of +500' and 'I think it needs a level adjustment of -500'.

Gut feelings are all well and good, but they tend to be very campaign dependent and experience dependent within said campaigns. Along with being easily fooled by a number of mundane sources (see mystic theurge example again, which 'can' be numerically shown how strong/weak it is).


I am still hopeing that someone can come up with some sort of examples they feel show overpowerdness and how

 

[Nifft]

Overpowered. TWO bonus feats? Two bonus REALLY GOOD feats?!

Two HD in trade for +12 to stats? Golly.

b0rken. Sorry. -- N

 

[Scion]

man, replies like that are really annoying, and exactly in line with what has been said about the mystic theurge.

Why bother even posting nifft?