new race

[Bront]

+3 is 'huge', especially for this guy. The halfdragon has a +3 and he gets a lot more than the guy above. The +8 to str alone is worth a whole lot more than the +2 to every stat, and the halfdragon still has more stat bonuses besides.

I've seen people argue that bonuses to mental stats are much easier to abuse. Not sure I agree, but I think this race is right up there balance wise with the half dragon.

While this is true to a degree, we do have something to compare with: The base books.

I am

The comparisons I gave above use them and I think it speaks pretty clearly for that level. If others feel that there are other levels where the abilities will shift hard in one direction or another I'd love to see them.

I'll use a quick standard example, instead. Compare an L2 Human Paladin vs an L1 Aassimar Paladin. The human wins the compairisons in most cases. Add a few levels, and the advantages that the human has are somewhat nullified by the Aassimar's racial abilites, and the LA+1 becomes less of an issue.

If people are just going to give their opinion without anything to back it up (such as, 'I just feel that there are too many numbers there, cut out half of them and toss on a level adjustment and we'll talk') then I'd like them to look over my examples first to see where they think they have gone wrong or are overpowered.

I've told you where I think using your compairison as THE example is a flaw. You need a bigger sample size. I specificly disagree with you about your analysis of the feats being week because they are less openended, when the race, as designed, is ment to be psionic. It's a limiting factor for, say, a normal fighter, but even then, given you can still take psionic feats as you have PSPs to start, it's not as limiting as it could be.

Flavor text is completely unimportant for balance discussions. Rp benefits or drawbacks should not be used to balance actual numbers (this could be done on a campaign by campaign basis, but those are special cases).

Flavor can be found in the numbers as well as outside the numbers. Keep in mind, most races do have non-steriotype members. There are Gnome fighters, Dwarven Wizards, and so on. And many of the races, while flavored to be better at something, have enough flavor that they bring something unique to every profession. This race is so psionicly focused, that some of their racial abilities are wasted if you're not a psion of some kind. My suggetion worked for any class, even though it was better for a psion. And it gave the race a special something that was different for them to bring to each and every profession.

I have seen some people call various races in the phb the 'ubermunchkin' race (actually, i have seen them all called something like that at one point or another, even the halforc, as crazy as that sounds).

First impressions can be right or wrong, but it is always good to actually look a little deeper

I've only seen one other thing that I would call Ubermunchkin that I commented on, and it was a Mageborn template. And I tweeked that one enough to add flavor in the numbers, as well as balance it out to were several others liked it, and I may actualy use it. The problem is when drawbacks are not drawbacks, and when the bonuses are increadable in certain circumstances. This is close, but I can see your attempt was genuine to make something interesting than to see what you can get away with (which the other one was).

Since many of the LA +1 are only that way because they either have only a slight advantage that it is felt shouldnt be on a LA +0 race or mislabeled I dont think it is a valid comparison. Along with LA +1 being very different than 2 hd gone. The two hd is very similar to LA +2 but it avoids the paper tiger syndrome much easier.

First of all, you refered me to the base books, and I will refer you to them as well. The EPH races are base races if you use psionics, and they are balanced as such. You can't brush aside the base stuff you don't like, and use favorably the stuff you do when balancing them. You need to look at the whole picture. What you call the "paper tiger" syndrome, most everyone else calls balancing. I agree that after LA +3 it becomes a problem for PC races, but I think that it generaly does balance out, and that LA is designed to cost full levels, and that is what your template needs. Using Racial HD only is a way to get around the LA, which I think realy is the problem as to why most people think this is unbalanced, and you get such strong negitive reactions.

Actually, in the case of this guy, I think the numbers can do it very well. There arent many etheral things floating around (like being able to use some uber power but only once per day to completely skew the comparison) and everything essentiall is a number.

Also, people can feel it needs whatever LA they feel like, but without something to back it up (as in, what is making them feel that way based on something actually in the game) there isnt any difference between, 'I think it needs a level adjustment of +500' and 'I think it needs a level adjustment of -500'.

Gut feelings are all well and good, but they tend to be very campaign dependent and experience dependent within said campaigns. Along with being easily fooled by a number of mundane sources (see mystic theurge example again, which 'can' be numerically shown how strong/weak it is).

I am still hopeing that someone can come up with some sort of examples they feel show overpowerdness and how

I look at the numbers, compair them to other races I feel are balanced, and have told you what I come up with. You disagree with me, and that's fine, it's ultimately your race, and your campaign. But, you did ask for input, and I'm giving you mine, as are several others. Nifft knows quite a bit about balance, and has helped me flesh out and balance a few ideas I've posted here. He told you specificly the most broken things he sees in your proposal, and has blown the rest off because he feels it's so unbalanced that it's not worth his time. So have several others. This is why you are getting so many negitive reactions.

Try making characters at different levels. 6th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. See how they compair. Also, don't forget about how things stack. You made some genaric characters. With specific powers, your 1st level psion can manifest a few powers at 4th level for no damage with the overchanel and talented feats (Two psionic feats btw). It gets even worse at highter levels. With the bonus to stats, the character gets a flat +1 to hit, damage, dodge, initiative, hp/lv, skillpoint/lv, to each save, all skills, and anything else stat related, compaired to a race with no stat modifiers. And that's just from the +2s, and does not include the other racial features. Some of these become more apparant at higher levels, as do some of the other racial abilities. This is why they should have an LA of some kind. They basicly get almost all the bonuses of having an extra level or more from their stats.

Just trying to give you some helpful input.

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

Hey man, i like your creation. People just dont understand, like you said, the half-dragon has an LA of +3, which is lower because of his ability increases, wings, breathe weapon, +4 natural armor, ect. Now, what about the half-angel template, now its LA +4. From what its base creatures adjustments turn into, it should be +6 or +7 in my eyes.


But then again, everyone has a right to say their own opinion when asked.

 

[Nifft]

man, replies like that are really annoying, and exactly in line with what has been said about the mystic theurge.

Why bother even posting nifft?

To keep my post count higher than yours, of course.

Why bother asking for input scion? And certainly why bother responding?

Defensiveness is just so attractive.

-- N

 

[Thanee]

Let's see...

Kri'Loroth
• 2 Racial hd (aberration)

Ok, that's just a design choice and should have no effect on the power level (even tho, it does make the race a weaker choice for spellcasters or manifesters, of course, but they don't have to become psions).

• +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha: Kri'Loroth are made to be good at what they do (and it helps to make up for having few of the large size benefits)

This alone is a +1 to +2 LA already.

• Large Sized
• Weak Build (opposite of powerful build, functions in most ways as though they are medium size)

Being large is mostly a disadvantage for them (they still have the reach, tho), not a huge one, but should reduce their LA somewhat. It does not (alone) balance the ability boosts, tho.

• Low Light Vision (instead of darkvision)

Another minor disadvantage. That plus the Weak Build together is still lower than a -1 to LA, tho.

• Psychic Voice: The Kri'Loroth psychic ability allows them to create a voice as a normal creature with vocal cords. Covering their entire head will block sound in a normal fashion.
• Naturally Psionic: +1 PP/hd
• Psi Ability: Whenever manifesting metaphysical weapon or inertial armor the Kri'Loroth powerful natural talent kicks in and pays for up to 2 points of augmentation for free (this cannot go above the normal maximum for augmentation). Every 4 levels of a psionic class the Kri'Loroth may pick another defensive power to gain this ability as well.
• Automatic Languages: Kri'Loroth, Common, Bonus Languages: Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal (Kri'Loroth often search for their origin and have constant exposure to unearthly languages)

These are some nice benefits, but nothing really outrageous, Psi Ability is pretty good, of course.

• 2 Bonus psionic feats

This is a huge advantage.

• Favored class: Any psionic class

*shrug* Doesn't really do much.

All in all, I think +2 or even +3 LA would be fitting.

At +0 LA the race is definitely overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nifft]

Why instead of darkvision? Are they based on another race?

Aberrations have Darkvision by default.

-- N

 

[Thanee]

Ahh, right. Ok, that's another minor disadvantage then, doesn't really change the whole.

Bye
Thanee

 

[IcyCool]

I thought it might be helpful to list the advantages and disadvantages that this race grants.

Please correct me if you see something wrong.

Kri'Loroth Advantages:
* 10ft. Reach
* +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
* Naturally Psionic: +1 PP/hd
* Low Light Vision
* Proficient with all natural and simple weapons
* Immune to spells that affect Humanoids (Charm Person, Hold Person, etc.)
* Psi Ability: Whenever manifesting metaphysical weapon or inertial armor the Kri'Loroth powerful natural talent kicks in and pays for up to 2 points of augmentation for free (this cannot go above the normal maximum for augmentation). Every 4 levels of a psionic class the Kri'Loroth may pick another defensive power to gain this ability as well.
* 2 Bonus psionic feats
* Favored class: Any psionic class
---------------------------------
Kri'Loroth Disadvantages:
-1 Size penalty to AC
-1 Size penalty to Attacks
-4 Size penalty to Hide

2 Abberation Hit Dice - I'm hesitant to list these as much of a disadvantage, but am listing them because you claim they are. These hit dice give you 2d8 + 2xCon mod hit points, +1 BAB, Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3, and 10 + (5*Int mod) in skill points.

Now, let's compare to a human, and then to an elf.

Human Advantages:
4 Bonus skill points
1 Bonus feat
Favored Class: Any
------------------
Human Disadvantages:
None

Elf Advantages:
+2 Dex
Low-Light Vision
Immune to Magic Sleep effects
+2 racial bonus to saving throws against Enchantment spells or effects
Weapon Proficiency Longsword, Rapier, Longbow, Shortbow
+2 racial bonus on Listen Search and Spot
Automatic Search check to notice secret doors
------------------
Elf Disadvantages:
-2 Con

 

[IcyCool]

Here is what the Savage Species rules have to say on estimating Level Adjustment:

Unbalanced Ability Scores: The Ability Score Equivalencies table on page 173 in the DMG shows how to balance ability scores. A monster that does not follow those rules gains at least a +1 level adjustment. A higher level adjustment is appropriate if the monster's ability score bonuses (especially strength or con modifiers) are particularly high. Not having a Constitution score is actually a benefit, since a monster without one can ignore most effects requiring a Fortitude save.

Size: A Large creature gets no level adjustment for size. Its level adjustment is based on reach instead.

Natural Armor Bonus: N/A

Speed: N/A

Natural Weapons: N/A

Reach: Beyond 5 feet, every additional 5 feet of reach is worth an additional +1 level adjustment. A monster with a 10ft reach gets +1 level adjustment. A monster with a 15ft reach gets +2 level adjustment.

Skills and Feats: A monster with three or more racial bonuses on skill checks gets a +1 level adjustment. Likewise, two or more bonus feats because of race gain the creature a +1 level adjustment.

Special Attacks and Special Qualities: The trickiest features of level adjustment, these features require special thought. A long list of features does not automatically grant a level adjustment, since monsters can generally only use one special attack per round. A single feature is not always worth a level adjustment, since characters of the standard races can often achieve the same result through their class features, magic items, or spells. In general, a special attack or special quality that a character of a standard race cannot duplicate is worth a +1 level adjustment. Below are several specific examples to illustrate how to assign level adjustments to creatures in the introductory category.
Ability Score Damage: Worth a +1 unless affected ability score is Con, then worth a +2
Blindsight: +1 level adjustment
Poison: +1 level adjustment, unless poison affects Con, then +2
Scent: +1 level adjustment
Spell Like Abilities: If a creature can use any spell-like ability at will, then it gets a +1 level adjustment
Spellcasting Ability: If a creature can cast spells at a higher level than its hit dice, then it gets a +1 level adjustment.
Spell Resistance: +1 level adjustment
Resistance to Energy: +0.5 per energy type, rounded up. So one or two resistances is worth a +1 level adjustment, 3 or 4 is worth +2, etc.

As you are using Racial Hit Dice, I would offer the following conversion into LA. Each Racial Hit Dice is the equivalent +0.5 LA. Therefore, you could replace the 2 Racial Hit Dice with a +1 LA and it should be roughly equivalent. Of course, you could always keep the Racial Hit Dice instead.

After all of this is done, you apply the acid test. Which is to say, you put together a character with a class level (which is favored by the ability bonuses the race gets) using a base race (human is fine) and a build using this race to compare, and increase or reduce the LA until the choice between the two is no longer a clear-cut one.

So, according to the above, your race should have the following:

Unbalanced Ability Scores - I'm tempted to go with a +2 just for this, but let's go with +1.
Reach - +1 for reach.
Skill and Feats - +1 for the two bonus feats.
Special Attacks and Special Qualities - Your free overchanneling at will would count for a +1, IMO.

So that's a total of +4, or with my suggestion about Racial Hit Dice, 2 RHD +3 LA. Now, it doesn't really seem playable (or worth) that much. So a reduction is in order. As I don't have my books on me to create the characters, I can't go any farther than this. Perhaps if we had an ECL 20 human psychic warrior and ECL 20 Kri'Loroth psychic warrior to compare this might help.

 

[Scion]

I've seen people argue that bonuses to mental stats are much easier to abuse. Not sure I agree, but I think this race is right up there balance wise with the half dragon.

I've seen arguements both ways, so it has always felt like more of a wash. It completely depends on what class you are playing and what all of the said bonuses are and what you are comparing it to.

Still though, I feel that the +8 str of the halfdragon alone trumps just about all of this guy, let alone the other bonuses he gets. But he has some 'major' paper tiger syndrome early on and other big issues later. He really isnt very well balanced over all.

Now, most races with extra hd and LA start off much weaker and then sometimes almost catch up in some ways later on, or the overall difference becomes less noticeable. This guy, as I have shown, starts off effectively even, but no one has shown that it is not the case later on. Still waiting

I'll use a quick standard example, instead. Compare an L2 Human Paladin vs an L1 Aassimar Paladin. The human wins the compairisons in most cases. Add a few levels, and the advantages that the human has are somewhat nullified by the Aassimar's racial abilites, and the LA+1 becomes less of an issue.

Less of an issue sure, but still there. Always in the background being just a little behind pretty much everywhere. The only thing special about them really is that they have 2 +2's, no -2's and resistance to energy in 3 places. Likely the two best classes to play with this guy are paladin and cleric. So, with using one of the best choices he is still behind in nearly every way. Early on potentially fatally so, later on in a whole lot of little ways. More than 1/3 of the time the bonus to saves isnt there, behind by a feat 1/3 of the time, by a stat point 1/4 of the time, 1 point off of all skills, BAB, HP, etc. From a power perspective, not roleplaying as that is a completely different beast, the majority of the time I'd rather play the human.

I've told you where I think using your compairison as THE example is a flaw. You need a bigger sample size. I specificly disagree with you about your analysis of the feats being week because they are less openended, when the race, as designed, is ment to be psionic. It's a limiting factor for, say, a normal fighter, but even then, given you can still take psionic feats as you have PSPs to start, it's not as limiting as it could be.

Of course, I have been asking people to give other builds from the start. So, it isnt 'my' flaw

Also, if you are talking about how I said that one had the advantage over the other even though they had the same total for a specific class setup then I would question why you think my conclusion there was incorrect. As the simpler example shows (one class with a feat and 5 choices while another with a feat and 2 choices which are a subset of the 5) the first guy definately has the edge. It may not be huge, but it opens up a wider variety of choices so different builds, different options, and more of each.

Flavor can be found in the numbers as well as outside the numbers. Keep in mind, most races do have non-steriotype members. There are Gnome fighters, Dwarven Wizards, and so on. And many of the races, while flavored to be better at something, have enough flavor that they bring something unique to every profession. This race is so psionicly focused, that some of their racial abilities are wasted if you're not a psion of some kind.

This guy has a lot of flavor along with him, although it isnt the kind people are used to. But, flavor isnt terribly important (rather, unimportant) to a balance discussion.

The race I posted above tend to be very tall but have builds which are not set to take advantage of that. They are superior in stats to a number of races which drives them to be arrogent and think that everyone else is a lesser race. All of them have a psionic bend to them and their society is based around it, however not all memebers are of psionic classes. Just because someone has some pp and some psionic feats does not force them to go into psionic classes, even favored class does not push this. In fact, they are perfectly capable of going out into other classes.

So yes, they can have nonsteriotypical memebers, as does everyone. Nothing there prevents it or even pushes the other way. They have no huge stat penalties to exclude any class, only one of their features deals with being a psionic class directly and it is fairly minor and only works with quite a few levels in specific classes with specific power choices which basically points to more flavor without them needing to take advantage of it at all, and the psionic feats can help most classes if chosen properly.

I dont see how it is pushing any more than any other race, in fact it pushes a lot less than some in the core.

First of all, you refered me to the base books, and I will refer you to them as well. The EPH races are base races if you use psionics, and they are balanced as such. You can't brush aside the base stuff you don't like, and use favorably the stuff you do when balancing them. You need to look at the whole picture. What you call the "paper tiger" syndrome, most everyone else calls balancing. I agree that after LA +3 it becomes a problem for PC races, but I think that it generaly does balance out, and that LA is designed to cost full levels, and that is what your template needs. Using Racial HD only is a way to get around the LA, which I think realy is the problem as to why most people think this is unbalanced, and you get such strong negitive reactions.

Unfortunately, a lot of the psionic things were balanced on the scale of, 'if we make it actually balanced with other races then people will cry it is broken, so we will purposefully make it slightly weaker so people cannot complain'. Or at least that is how it seems to me. Case in point: Blue.

I am attempting to look at the whole picture. However, when comparing races most people agree that the human is a good standard for LA +0, hence why I tend to use it in comparisons. Other races tend to heavily favor certain steriotypes or at least not work very well with certain builds. The human tends to wash all of this out, assuming that feat choices allow.

The paper tiger syndrome is more of a, 'incredibly strong offense, incredibly weak defense'. At fourth level for the halfdragon this is so paramount that you simply cannot play one without expecting to die a horrible death. To me, that screams imbalance. Some might try to say, 'but in 15 levels it actually becomes somewhat ok in certain areas!', but that does not fly with me. Tacking enough levels onto something to try to mask the problem is no good, fix the problem and you wont have to make exceptions.

Now, where this race fits in is that at level 3, as I posted above, it seems equal. Maybe later on it becomes horribly abusive, no one has shown that yet. But, for not, this race is more balanced than the halfdragon simply because it is not a death sentence to use from the beginning. How do halfdragons even get high enough level to leave behind this major problem? It is just swept under the rug I guess.

Still though, racial hd cost just as many levels as LA does. It just provides a much smoother transition. Although I think most people simply see the racial hd as not a detriment somehow and would like to see a massive number in LA, which would turn any race into a waste of paper. The racial hd is a psuedo LA already since it cuts into class levels which delays higher level abilities/combinations. It is a cost that keeps on costing all the way up, same as LA.

I look at the numbers, compair them to other races I feel are balanced, and have told you what I come up with. You disagree with me, and that's fine, it's ultimately your race, and your campaign. But, you did ask for input, and I'm giving you mine, as are several others. Nifft knows quite a bit about balance, and has helped me flesh out and balance a few ideas I've posted here. He told you specificly the most broken things he sees in your proposal, and has blown the rest off because he feels it's so unbalanced that it's not worth his time. So have several others. This is why you are getting so many negitive reactions.

Comparing in your head with no basis that I can see is as helpful to me as if I was just talking to the wall here. What I disagree with is making spot calls with no backing that I can see.

It could very well be that you have a long list of determining factors and go through many different permutations to come to your conclusions, but without my being able to see them I dont know which are conditional on what and whether or not I agree with the pieces.

Maybe you are completely right, but how am I supposed to know? How am I supposed to work with, 'well, I wouldnt use it, try this completely different thing instead'?

Nifft may very well be good at working with people to flesh things out, but his comment here was completely unhelpful. It did not help to flesh anything out, it did not give any reasons, all it did was make a couple of snide comments and overreact without anything useful. He might as well have just come in and spouted random sylables and left for all the good it did. If it isnt 'worth his time' to even try then it shouldnt be 'worth his time' to even make the post.

Actual data I can work with. Helpful pointers about what might be a problem can be a good start, but I need some meat to chew on, now just thoughts about how it might be overpowered if you think about it doing certain things that may happen at some point in an etheral future.

You made some genaric characters. With specific powers, your 1st level psion can manifest a few powers at 4th level for no damage with the overchanel and talented feats (Two psionic feats btw).

1st level psion with overchannel and talented expends focus (effectively 1/battle at best at this point) to raise his manifestor level by 1. So he spent both of his feats and focus to try to get closer to what the other guy could do, even though he has less than half the total pp and less than half the total powers known.

Still sounds pretty far behind to me.

It gets even worse at highter levels. With the bonus to stats, the character gets a flat +1 to hit, damage, dodge, initiative, hp/lv, skillpoint/lv, to each save, all skills, and anything else stat related, compaired to a race with no stat modifiers.

Note again that this does not bear out according to the examples I have given. Do you have some other examples somewhere?

This is why they should have an LA of some kind. They basicly get almost all the bonuses of having an extra level or more from their stats.

I'm afraid that the numbers just arent with you here. The examples say differently.

Just trying to give you some helpful input.

And I appreciate it, I just need something I can work with more than gut feelings. ;/ Actual numbers help me much, much more. Comparison builds would be best, preferably as generic as possible.

As the above showed with your comments on overchannel, sometimes people can base their gut reactions on things that arent true, which is why the reasonings need to be written out.

 

[Scion]

Hey man, i like your creation. People just dont understand, like you said, the half-dragon has an LA of +3, which is lower because of his ability increases, wings, breathe weapon, +4 natural armor, ect. Now, what about the half-angel template, now its LA +4. From what its base creatures adjustments turn into, it should be +6 or +7 in my eyes.

half-angel?

But then again, everyone has a right to say their own opinion when asked.

True, but I dont feel that they have the right to be insulting when their opinions are laid out and reasons are given why they might be wrong Just as they have their rights to say something, I have mine to offer back what I think.