new race

[Scion]

Hey bront, you said that a Level adjustment +3 with no racial hd should be where this guy is? I get the definate impression you have never played with LA creatures, especially high LA ones. It is 'very' difficult to use much LA without creating a massive paper tiger syndrome. +3 with no hd would be a prime example of this, the guy above would need so much more stuff to overcome this that he would either wind up being broken or worthless, generally at the same time.

With that said though, your suggestions basically create a completely different race that loses all of the flavor this one is going for. I appreciate the suggestions, and if I need another psionic race at some point that would be a good place to start. I am trying to figure out how to modify it overall to keep the flavor while making it balanced in what it does. I am going to do a write up in a few moments hopefully to show where I think it is currently sitting.


I am not sure why but it seems like several of the comments basically say to change the hd into LA or simply ignore that extra hd still poses a pretty big opportunity cost. HD and abilities tends to be 'much' easier overall to balance however. This guy is effectively always going to be 2 manifestor levels behind the core race guy, which means way less higher powered options for the racial beanies, along with not getting the beanies of some other race. Trying to balance the oppotunty costs vs rewards is difficult

 

[Snowy]

what are you trying for with this race? as in whats their schtick? can you give me a description in words cos I'm not really sure what they are.

I mean for example a Kobold is.

A small scaley vaguely doglike humanoid, very weak but quite numble that lives in burrows and caves underground, fond of traps and devices to protect their warrens and very likely to attack from ambush with overwhelming odds.

a Lizardfolk is a heavily scaled strong and hardy hunter the weakest of which much hardier than the average human that lives in swampland and is almost as happy under as above the water and rarely consorts with outsiders they mostly resemble a crocodile and often have tempers to match.

these sort of lead to the actual stats of natural armour, physical bonus' and penalties and their racal HD and traits. I'm not seeing how your relating the bonus to strength and con to the weak build trait for example?

 

[IcyCool]

I would agree with making this race either 2 Racial Hit Dice with +2 Level adjustment, or a +3 Level adjustment with no Racial Hit Dice. I'd also ditch the Large size and "Weak Build" idea (and just say flavor wise that they average around 7 feet).

It looks like you are trying to say that +2 to all six stats, naturally psionic, low-light vision, the free overchanneling, and two bonus psionic feats are balanced by:

2 racial hit dice (not as good as class levels, but nowhere near worthless)
Large size penalties (-1 AC, -1 to hit, penalty to hide and move silent, armor costs more).

I could maybe see the Large size penalties balancing out one of the stat boosts. And the naturally psionic and low-light vision flies for a LA +0. But what is balancing the other 5 stat boosts, the free overchanneling, and two bonus psionic feats?

 

[smootrk]

I do not believe he wants actual commentary or critique. When offered opinions on the matter, Scion just defends his decisions.

Scion apparently just wants to hear accolades of greatness for his psionic race. Seeing the recurring theme of overpowered in this thread is falling of deaf ears.

I do not intend this as a personal attack, but as trying to demonstrate that your defeatest attitude towards those who don't see the race like you do, does not create a climate of sharing. Who wants to share an opinion, just to have it shot down.

Maybe it is just your method of delivery for your responses...

 

[Scion]

Just a basic writeup, if anyone sees any problems let me know, sometimes pulling through different sources can make for some oversites.

(I had to give an extra level of class so that I could use the same armor on each build)

Human psychic warrior 3
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (avg 20)
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8
Armor Class: 21 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Longsword (d8+2 19-20/x2, +4), Mighty +2 Composite Longbow (d8+2 20/x3, +3)
Skills: 18 skill points from psychic warrior list
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Feats: 3 any feats, 2 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic)
PP: 6
Powers: 3 1st level powers
Manifestor level: 3

Human psion 3
HD: 3d4+3 (avg 12)
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
Armor Class: 11 ( +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: dagger (d4 19-20/x2, +1), light crossbow (d8 19-20/x2, +2)
Skills: 30 skill points from psion (x) list
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +4
Feats: 3 any feats, 1 bonus (psionic, metapsionic, psionic item creation)
PP: 14
Powers: 5 1st level powers, 2 2nd level powers
Manifestor level: 3

Human soulknife 3
HD: 3d10+3 (avg 24)
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Armor Class: 17 (+4 chain shirt ,+2 large shield, +1 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Mind Blade (d6+2 19-20/x2, +5)
Skills: 36 skill points from soulknife list
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +3
Feats: 3 any feats, Weapon focus (mindblade), Wild Talent
PP: 2
Special: Throw mind blade, Psychic Strike +1d8
---

Kri'Loroth (base)
HD: 2d8 (abberation)
Large sized
Weak Build
Low light vision
Psychic voice
+1 pp/hd
psi ability with metaphysical weapon and inertial armor
2 psionic feats


Kri'Loroth psychic warrior 1
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (avg 23) (better by 3)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10 (better, obviously..lol)
Armor Class: 20 (+8 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 dex, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 9 (worse, although this version has a higher dex, so later on this guy could go for mithril to takd advantage of it, but then he couldnt have adamantine armor, tough call)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4 (worse in bab)
Attack: Longsword (d8+3 19-20/x2, +3), Mighty +3 Composite Longbow (d8+3 20/x3, +2) (better in damage, worse to hit)
Skills: 15 skill points for base race skills ,3 skill points from psychic warrior list (worse)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +6 (same, same, better)
Feats: 2 any feats, 1 psychic warrior feats (fighter + psychic), 2 psionic feats (worse, surprising isnt it? lol)
PP: 4 (worse)
Powers: 1 1st level power (worse)
Manifestor level: 1 (worse)
Special: Low light vision (better)

So, take this as you will, but I think it is a tough call between the two.

Kri'Loroth psion 1
HD: 2d8 + d4 +6 (avg 21) (much better, no surprise there! )
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10 (better)
Armor Class: 11 (-1 size, +2 dex), touch 11, flat-footed 9 (same, same, worse)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 (same, better in grapple)
Attack: dagger (d4+1 19-20/x2, +0), light crossbow (d8 19-20/x2, +1) (better damage on dagger and worse to hit, worse to hit on crossbow)
Skills: 25 skill points for base race skills, 5 skill points from psion (x) list (tough, I think the human has the advantage though, it depends on which psion was picked though)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +7 (same, same, better)
Feats: 2 any feats, 1 bonus (psionic, metapsionic, psionic item creation), 2 psionic (better, definately)
PP: 6 (worse, much)
Powers: 3 1st level powers (way worse)
Manifestor level: 1 (worse)

Rather a lot like taking 2 levels of psychic warrior actually, with some interesting twists, worse in some ways and better in others.. but definately worse than a straight psion for manifesting.

Kri'Loroth soulknife 1
HD: 2d8+d10+6 (avg 24) (same!)
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10 (better)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 chain shirt ,+2 large shield, +2 dex, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 15 (same, same, worse)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4 (worse bab)
Attack: Mind Blade (d6+3 19-20/x2, +4) (1 better damage, 1 less to hit)
Skills: 20 skill points for base race ,6 skill points from soulknife list (way worse than the human)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +6 (same, same, better)
Feats: 2 any feats, Weapon focus (mindblade), Wild Talent, 2 psionic feats (debateable, but I'd say better for the Kri'Loroth)
PP: 2
Special: None (definately worse)

This guy is definately better off being human by far


Now, I know it looks powerful just being written out, but taking the above into account what do people think? Can any of you show with a build where it is overpowered? At this point it is roughly equal at least and just at a guess later on the bonuses will be mitigated by being behind in class features.

If anything is broken or if people can find a big overpowered combo feel free to let me know.

I seem to have forgotten where I put the racial skill list.. it only had about 4 or 5 skills on it though.

Did I miss anything in these builds?

 

[Scion]

I do not believe he wants actual commentary or critique. When offered opinions on the matter, Scion just defends his decisions.

Come on now, this is insulting and unwarrented.

If someone posts up a spell that they want to be like magic missile but does fire damage and a lesser die and someone else says, 'well, I wouldnt put it in my game' and another guy says, 'well, you should make it 2nd level, do cold damage too, have a different range, and a secondary effect with another save' what would you say?

or if another person came on saying, 'horribly broken!' would you then compare it with magic missile to show how it is different?

If you believe it is overpowered I want to hear why. People who say that they feel it is overpowered by just looking at it in a vacuum dont help me. After all, there was a big outcry about how overpowered the mystic theurge was for exactly the same reason.

Builds are good and comparisons are good, but counter comparisons are to be expected.

I dont expect everything I say to be taken as the One and Perfect Truth, neither should anyone who posts here should think that their stuff is that either.


Still though, there are a lot of people saying, 'well, I think it needs this to be balanced', I want to know the why though. I just put up some comparisons, which I find helpful.

If people feel it is overpowered and needs some huge LA, why? Compared to what? What is so huge that it takes that? There are various components which add up to the whole. I want to see what I have missed, so please put up what that is! Also, leaving the insults at home is good.

 

[IcyCool]

This guy is definately better off being human by far

Now, I know it looks powerful just being written out, but taking the above into account what do people think? Can any of you show with a build where it is overpowered? At this point it is roughly equal at least and just at a guess later on the bonuses will be mitigated by being behind in class features.

If anything is broken or if people can find a big overpowered combo feel free to let me know.

I seem to have forgotten where I put the racial skill list.. it only had about 4 or 5 skills on it though.

Did I miss anything in these builds?

I'd recommend that you do your comparison with a 17th level human psychic warrior/psion and a 15 level Krilorth psychic warrior/psion.

I still stand by my declaration that this is at least a 2 RHD 2 LA, or a 3 LA race.

 

[Scion]

I'd recommend that you do your comparison with a 17th level human psychic warrior/psion and a 15 level Krilorth psychic warrior/psion.

I still stand by my declaration that this is at least a 2 RHD 2 LA, or a 3 LA race.

Go for it make the guys

 

[IcyCool]

Go for it make the guys

I don't have access to the SRD at work anymore

 

[Scion]

I don't have access to the SRD at work anymore

I'll check back through the weekend, looking forward to your builds