new race

I imagine that you will have a field day with this post Scion, but here it is anyway:

My GUT tells me that this race is over the top for a PC race. I could go on, but I won't bother because I know you don't want to hear it.

The problem with this whole thread is that you basically threw something out there (clearly it took at least some work, especially for your examples, which were nice by the way) and are now telling other people to work on it. Unfortunatly you are not doing so in a nice way. People are suggesting ways that you should test the race out and you turn around and tell *them* to do the work. I'm sorry, but that is not their job, it's your race, you need to do the work. If you are happy with it and you don't feel that anyone can point out anything that will change you mind, then don't worry about what other people think. Again, it is your race, your creation, and you need to do the work to test it out if in fact you believe that it needs testing. From your comments it seems like you are happy with it as it is, so by all means, go with it.

Finally, in my opinion, flavor defines race (and class for that matter). You claim that it isn't important to balancing, but unfortunatly it is vitally important. If this race is a slaver race on a world where they control the majority of psionic power, then they are fine. On the other hand, if they are supposed to fit in directly with races in the PHB or EPH, then you shouuld take a closer look at comparing various races. I will not (nor will anyone else it seems) do this work for you. Create some builds, a range of builds, see how it works out.

Now, by all means, rip this post apart.
 

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Azurecrusader said:
Now, by all means, rip this post apart.

As you wish I suppose.

Azurecrusader said:
My GUT tells me that this race is over the top for a PC race. I could go on, but I won't bother because I know you don't want to hear it.

True, one persons gut might say it is too much, anothers might say it is not enough, another might say it is just right. So who do I believe?

Guts can be fooled, I prefer proof. But even more than that, in order to get a 'gut' feeling you have to go through some sort of mental jumping at the very least I would like to see those. After all, your gut has a 'reason', why not give the reasons as well instead of just feeling?

Azurecrusader said:
The problem with this whole thread is that you basically threw something out there (clearly it took at least some work, especially for your examples, which were nice by the way) and are now telling other people to work on it.

I have said that if they feel some way about it to explain why and give proof. If they have no way to do so, or no desire to actually help, then that is just as good as not posting.

If someone were to say, 'surgeons are all stupid people and doing it requires no real skill' then most people would discount it. They have more evidence to the contrary. If the person could give some sort of proof then that would at least show why they are thinking that way and under what conditions it 'might' be true.

I am just asking for the same thing. I have put up something and asked people to help show me what is overly wrong with the class. I figured people would see a lot, but I was hopeing that with that there would be some actual discussion. If that is too much to ask then I will go to another board. Yes, discussion, if someone says that it is 'obvious' that item X needs to be fixed and I state my reasons why I think it is ok that is not an attack, that is giving my thought processes and trying to get them to show theirs. If they dont then I simply assume they dont have anything important to say. If they did then they would give something to back up their claims.

Anything constructive people have to say is welcome, but I want it backed up. Without it being backed up it isnt worth the time it takes to read it, just like any opinions about difficult subjects.

Azurecrusader said:
Unfortunatly you are not doing so in a nice way.

Eh, I respond in kind. If someone is nice I respond nicely, if not then not. So neutral unhelpful responses usually get something like, 'ok, but can you back it up with something?' If that is interpreted as being 'not nice' then so be it, but I do not intend it as such. Asking for further evidence to a hard claim shouldnt be necissary to begin with.

Azurecrusader said:
People are suggesting ways that you should test the race out and you turn around and tell *them* to do the work.

I have done work and they said that work is unimportant at other levels, I have asked them to back up their claims.

But I've already gone over that. I made a claim and showed where I felt it was true, someone else makes a claim and shows nothing, who is at fault?

Azurecrusader said:
Finally, in my opinion, flavor defines race (and class for that matter). You claim that it isn't important to balancing, but unfortunatly it is vitally important. If this race is a slaver race on a world where they control the majority of psionic power, then they are fine. On the other hand, if they are supposed to fit in directly with races in the PHB or EPH, then you shouuld take a closer look at comparing various races.

mechanical effects should never be used to cover roleplaying effects, and the other way around.

So, it is vitally important to 'not' take them into account. It doesnt matter if they are the slaver race or the slave race, none of their stats should change depending on that for a general race.

Sure, for individual campaigns one could make an arguement about rp vs mechanical, but in general? It should not be used.

Azurecrusader said:
I will not (nor will anyone else it seems) do this work for you.

Some people are starting to try, which is good and I appreciate it.

If people think that something is wrong then giving proof of why should be expected. If they cant explain their reasoning then their reasoning holds no weight.
 

Scion said:
If someone were to say, 'surgeons are all stupid people and doing it requires no real skill' then most people would discount it. They have more evidence to the contrary. If the person could give some sort of proof then that would at least show why they are thinking that way and under what conditions it 'might' be true.

Actually, what is being said is more along the lines of, "Surgeons require multiple years of medical school before they become skilled." With your response being, "Why? Prove it. Look here, I can give an example of a guy who performed skillful surgery with a pocketknife and no training, so obviously surgeons don't need all that training."

That may sound harsh, and it is certainly exaggerated, but I think it might throw things into perspective for you. And the fact that neither side can seem to see the other's viewpoint means that both sides are getting frustrated.

When everyone around you thinks one thing and you think another, consider that you may be in the wrong.

At any rate, I managed to find an SRD (not sure how reliable it is) and put together a couple of builds. Based on what I see below (acid test), your Kri'Loroth should be either a LA+2, or 2 Racial Hit Dice with +1 LA. That is my opinion, I have shown you my reasons. If you can't accept it or disagree, then I'm sorry, but I have no more to add to this discussion. I can only offer this little bit of advice, try your best to look at your own creations with a critical eye. This is hard, because you want what you create to be usable and cool.

Good Luck and Happy Gaming!

Comparisons
I don't really have a lot of experience with Psionics, but I figured I'd use the Psychic Warrior for comparison, as its got Str, Con, and Wis as useful abilities. As your monster benefits from a bonus to all of these, it felt like the best fit for the Acid test. You'll note that the Kri'Loroth is better than the human in everyway (including skills) than the Human, except for Flat-footed AC, and number of powers known. The other human advantage, feats, is tied. So not only is the Kri'Loroth better than the human, it is at least as good as the human where the human should be better. The Elan and the Elf are thrown in for comparison as well. I used a 30-point buy, and got the stats you see under the human entry. I didn't add ability points for levels, because they would be a wash (the extra point the Human, Elan, and Elf get would have been an odd point and therefore a wash).

Kri'Loroth Psychic Warrior 18
Large Abberation
Hit Dice: 2d8 + 18d8 +60 (163hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 11 (+2 Dex, -1 Size), Touch 11, Flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+18
Attack: +18 melee (Does +4 or +6 damage(2-handed)), +16 ranged
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 10ft./10ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Naturally Psionic (+20 pp), Psi-ability (Metaphysical Weapon, Inertial Armor, +4 other defensive powers), Weak build.
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +12
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 16 skill points to spend cross-class (as you gave them no class skills for their race) + 72 skill points to spend on class skills
Feats: 7 regular + 7 fighter or psionic + 2 psionic
Power Points/day: 150 = 103 + 20 + 27 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost)
Powers Known: 18
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th
------------------------------

Human Psychic Warrior 20
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 20d8 +40 (143hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), Touch 11, Flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+18
Attack: +18 melee (Does +3 or +4 damage(2-handed)), +16 ranged
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: --
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 4 skill points for being human + 69 skill points to spend on class skills
Feats: 7 regular + 8 fighter or psionic + 1 any
Power Points/day: 147 = 127 + 20 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost)
Powers Known: 20
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th
------------------------------

Elan Psychic Warrior 20
Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 20d8 +40 (143hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), Touch 11, Flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+18
Attack: +18 melee (Does +3 or +4 damage(2-handed)), +16 ranged
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Naturally Psionic (+20pp), Resistance, Resilience, Repletion
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 69 skill points to spend on class skills
Feats: 7 regular + 8 fighter or psionic
Power Points/day: 167 = 127 + 20 + 20 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost)
Powers Known: 20
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th
------------------------------

Elf Psychic Warrior 20
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 20d8 +20 (123hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), Touch 12, Flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+18
Attack: +18 melee (Does +3 or +4 damage(2-handed)), +17 ranged
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Elf skill and save bonuses, Elf martial training, Immune to magical sleep effects
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 69 skill points to spend on class skills
Feats: 7 regular + 8 fighter or psionic
Power Points/day: 147 = 127 + 20 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost)
Powers Known: 20
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th
 
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ok. many peoples gut feeling (and their intuitive feeling, and their deductive reasoning) says its too strong for LA+1. You seem to have a problem with what they're saying I'll try short and easily understood sentances.

They have a bonus to every stat. Why? what reasoning? they are higher than average in every aspect than humans this alone deserves a LA.

they have two good feats this is a good thing

they have extra powerpoints this is a good thing

they have reach and a -1 to AC and attack, meh, small bad thing

adding racial HD under the present DnD system does NOT account for better than average ability scores bonus feats or anything else, as was discussed a while ago there is no race with racial HD that doesn't have a LA aswell.

You could make a post and try and establish how many racial HD you would need (they are generally worse than class levels) to completely remove the level adjustment.
If you tried to do this the rules in unearthed arcana for buying off LA would make a good start.
 

IcyCool said:
Actually, what is being said is more along the lines of, "Surgeons require multiple years of medical school before they become skilled." With your response being, "Why? Prove it. Look here, I can give an example of a guy who performed skillful surgery with a pocketknife and no training, so obviously surgeons don't need all that training."

I disagree, obviously ;) Some have said, 'I wouldnt use that in my campaign' or 'BROKEN!' or 'anytime I see X I dismiss it entirely'. When they have said, 'at higher levels it breaks down' I have asked them to prove it.

Asking for proof is certainly within the realms of reason, especially when we are dealing with such a large number of uncertainties.

IcyCool said:
When everyone around you thinks one thing and you think another, consider that you may be in the wrong.

If they would give reasons why they feel that way I'll consider it. Until then, there are lots of people in the world who think things that are blatantly wrong every day, I have no reason to assume I havent stumbled on people who are doing the same, but I am more than willing to listen to reason ;) Opinions without backup are not valid in my eyes however.

IcyCool said:
At any rate, I managed to find an SRD (not sure how reliable it is) and put together a couple of builds. Based on what I see below (acid test), your Kri'Loroth should be either a LA+2, or 2 Racial Hit Dice with +1 LA. That is my opinion, I have shown you my reasons. If you can't accept it or disagree, then I'm sorry, but I have no more to add to this discussion. I can only offer this little bit of advice, try your best to look at your own creations with a critical eye. This is hard, because you want what you create to be usable and cool.

I'll check it over ;) thanks for the help! You have been one of the few to actually try to support what they have to say, that means a lot.

IcyCool said:
Comparisons
I don't really have a lot of experience with Psionics, but I figured I'd use the Psychic Warrior for comparison, as its got Str, Con, and Wis as useful abilities. As your monster benefits from a bonus to all of these, it felt like the best fit for the Acid test. You'll note that the Kri'Loroth is better than the human in everyway (including skills) than the Human, except for Flat-footed AC, and number of powers known. The other human advantage, feats, is tied. So not only is the Kri'Loroth better than the human, it is at least as good as the human where the human should be better. The Elan and the Elf are thrown in for comparison as well.

I'm looking through and I'll edit in some comments here and there with this.

IcyCool said:
Kri'Loroth Psychic Warrior 18
Large Abberation
Hit Dice: 2d8 + 18d8 +60 (163hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 11 (+2 Dex, -1 Size), Touch 11, Flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+18
Attack: +18 melee (Does +4 or +6 damage(2-handed)), +16 ranged +17 melee, +15 ranged
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 10ft./10ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Naturally Psionic (+20 pp), Psi-ability (Metaphysical Weapon, Inertial Armor, +4 other defensive powers), Weak build. you dont have 20 levels of psionic classes, so it is only 3 other defensive powers
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +12
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 16 skill points to spend cross-class (as you gave them no class skills for their race) + 72 skill points to spend on class skills they have them, I just didnt list them, i was going to but then people started insulting me so I thought the thread had ended, I'll put them up later tonight. Also, he has 20 racial skill points, not 16
Feats: 7 regular + 7 fighter or psionic + 2 psionic
Power Points/day: 150 = 103 + 20 + 27 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost)
Powers Known: 18
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th
Manifestor Level: 18
------------------------------

Human Psychic Warrior 20
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 20d8 +40 (143hp) (Assuming max at first hit-die, 5 hp each hit-die after that) worse
Initiative: +1 worse
Speed: 30ft.
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), Touch 11, Flat-footed 10 same, same, better
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+18 worse, same
Attack: +18 melee (Does +3 or +4 damage(2-handed)), +16 ranged this is one of the break away points, half of the time it is only a +1, the other half of the time it is +1 for one handed and +2 for two handed, but also better by +1 to hit, so this guy is better off, power attack provides a better boost for that attack bonus for two handed weapons either way
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft. worse
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: --
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +8 same, worse, worse, the middle snuck in from rounding and the last is mainly a difference between multiclassing and not
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8 worse
Skills: (Assuming no stat bumps to int) 4 skill points for being human + 69 skill points to spend on class skills not sure where you got these numbers, it is actually 92 points to spend on psychic warrior class skills
Feats: 7 regular + 8 fighter or psionic + 1 any better
Power Points/day: 147 = 127 + 20 bonus power points (assuming no Wisdom boost) this one is interesting, without any sort of items he is 3 points behind, with a +2 item they are 2 points apart, +4 item 1 point apart, +6 item exactly the same, pretty cool huh? ;)
Powers Known: 20 better
Maximum Power Level Known: 6th same
Manifestor Level: 20 better

So, side by side we have this I believe:
Kri'Loroth vs Human
+20 hp
+1 initiative
-1 Ac (flatfooted)
Maybe lower ac normally as well, 'if' the armor he is wearing has a max dex bonus lower than his actual ac, which is possible. Still though, not really a balancing issue, just a general comment
-1 BAB
-1 to hit
+1/+1.5 damage in melee (possibly +1 damage on ranged)
+5' reach
Low light vision
Psi-ability on metaphysical weapon, inertial armor, and 3 other defensive powers
+1 reflex
+4 will (3 of this are mostly from a multiclassing issue however)
same total number of skill points, 20 from a lesser selection
2 more psionic feats
1 less psychic warrior feat (psionic + fighter)
1 less 'any' feat (as in, any)
3 more pp (although with + items this goes away because of the lower number of psychic warrior levels)
2 less powers known (which could be of any level up to 6th, or, in other words, chosen from any psychic warrior power on the list)
2 less manifestor levels


From this comparison the only thing I think that stands out as being potentially out of balance is the 5' reach, which I can easily do away with. But, if I do so, then the Kri'Loroth will be behind slightly. I say that because of the loss of 2 6th level powers (maximum effect) and being 2 manifestor levels behind (easier dispels, shorter duration, less max augmentation, etc).

Thats ok though, it looks like for this example killing the 5' reach should pretty much do it. Although I personally wouldnt want to trade in 2 6th level psychic warrior powers and 2 manifestor levels for 20hp, +1 damage, and +1 initiative. But perhaps saving a few extra pp here and there for some powers will tip it back to being right in the balanced area.

Would you agree with this assessment? If not, which other thing do you think really tips it over in some other direction and why?

Interestingly, with inertial armor, while the Kri'Loroth spends less he also cant get as high of a bonus from it. The same for metaphysical weapon actually.
 

Snowy said:
ok. many peoples gut feeling (and their intuitive feeling, and their deductive reasoning) says its too strong for LA+1.

This guy happens to have racial hd instead of LA, shifting the paradigm ;)

Snowy said:
they have two good feats this is a good thing

I am glad that feats are not a bad thing

Snowy said:
they have extra powerpoints this is a good thing

I am also glad that pp are a good thing.

Of course, if you 'arent' a psionic class then they dont do much of anything, and if you are a psionic class then you lost a bunch of pp by picking this race. Sounds like a wash.

Snowy said:
they have reach and a -1 to AC and attack, meh, small bad thing

Two bad things. Neither of which is incredibly small. Still though, if we equate to feats then these are both better than feats that currently exist, but in the wrong direction.

Dodge is only vs 1 opponent after being designated, counters the -1 ac some of the time.

Weapon focus is only for a single weapon, counters the -1 to hit some of the time (likely most/all, but hey)

If you wanted to list a 'small' bad thing then you should've listed the extra money it takes to wear larger sizes of armor.

Snowy said:
adding racial HD under the present DnD system does NOT account for better than average ability scores bonus feats or anything else, as was discussed a while ago there is no race with racial HD that doesn't have a LA aswell.

LA is an overused concept. They try to make it solve a number of problems when it is only suited to a small amount.

Adding racial hd is effective, as the several different examples now show. maybe not as effective as some would like, but that is part of the point of asking for help, yes?

Still though, if it works why would it matter if there are no others that use the same method yet? New things are not automatically bad.

Plus, there 'are' races with hd and no LA, especially in Savage Species. Still though, just because other races are designed to be much less useful than the core does not make it right. We are trying to balance something here, even if there were no other examples of any other races that are not in the phb that are balanced that is no reason to not try to balance this one.

Snowy said:
You could make a post and try and establish how many racial HD you would need (they are generally worse than class levels) to completely remove the level adjustment.
If you tried to do this the rules in unearthed arcana for buying off LA would make a good start.

If we are going to start saying that the level buyoff is balanced then we have left the realm of sanity behind long ago ;/

As an example, lets say that this race had a +2 LA. This would mean it would be useless at low levels but at high levels peoples complaints of it being overpowered would still be there, because the LA would be gone. Fix the LA and no need for crazy rules that dont fix what they are trying to fix.
 

Scion said:
I disagree, obviously ;) Some have said, 'I wouldnt use that in my campaign' or 'BROKEN!' or 'anytime I see X I dismiss it entirely'. When they have said, 'at higher levels it breaks down' I have asked them to prove it.

Nifft said 'BROKEN!', and also gave an example of what he thought the problem was. You, of course, handily dismissed it.

Scion said:
Asking for proof is certainly within the realms of reason, especially when we are dealing with such a large number of uncertainties.

Agreed.

Scion said:
If they would give reasons why they feel that way I'll consider it. Until then, there are lots of people in the world who think things that are blatantly wrong every day, I have no reason to assume I havent stumbled on people who are doing the same, but I am more than willing to listen to reason ;) Opinions without backup are not valid in my eyes however.

As Yoda might say, "That, is why you fail." ;)

Scion said:
Kri'Loroth vs Human
-1 BAB
Yes, but the Kri'Loroth has an 18 strength, so your correction is wrong. The Kri'Loroth has +18 melee (+14 base + 4 strength mod) and +17 ranged (+14 base +3 dex)

Scion said:
Psi-ability on metaphysical weapon, inertial armor, and 3 other defensive powers

Wrong. A Kri'Loroth gets to use this ability on one more defensive power per every 4 levels of a psionic class. 18/4 = 4.5, round down to 4, not 3.

Scion said:
+4 will (3 of this are mostly from a multiclassing issue however)

So?

Scion said:
same total number of skill points, 20 from a lesser selection

Yeah, I forgot some of the human's skill points. So they come out even. Without knowing what the Kri'Loroth class skills are (I'm betting they've got a psionic skill or two in there), I can't tell if they are 'lesser'.

Scion said:
2 more psionic feats
1 less psychic warrior feat (psionic + fighter)
1 less 'any' feat (as in, any)

For a grand total of ... exactly the same number of feats.

Scion said:
From this comparison the only thing I think that stands out as being potentially out of balance is the 5' reach, which I can easily do away with. But, if I do so, then the Kri'Loroth will be behind slightly. I say that because of the loss of 2 6th level powers (maximum effect) and being 2 manifestor levels behind (easier dispels, shorter duration, less max augmentation, etc).

You don't see it being better than the human in everyway, and even with the human on the things Humans excel at? And you don't see this as a big strength?

Scion said:
Thats ok though, it looks like for this example killing the 5' reach should pretty much do it. Although I personally wouldnt want to trade in 2 6th level psychic warrior powers and 2 manifestor levels for 20hp, +1 damage, and +1 initiative. But perhaps saving a few extra pp here and there for some powers will tip it back to being right in the balanced area.

Would you agree with this assessment? If not, which other thing do you think really tips it over in some other direction and why?

If you want my opinion, I'd ditch the whole Large but not really large deal, make them medium, make their Psi Ability only work on the two listed powers, and slap on either a +1 level adjustment. If you are deadset on keeping them the same, I'd at least recommend 1 racial hit die and +1 LA.

I don't recommend trying to balance something that isn't +0 LA with just Racial Hit Dice. The only WotC monsters I can think of that do are the poorly done Antrhopomorhpic Animals in the appendix of Savage Species. Try the Acid test on a few of them (particularly the Baleen Whale, if memory serves).

As it is, the Kri'Loroth is always a better choice than the human. You just need to look at it from both low levels and higher levels.

Edit - Yep, Baleen Whale. 3 Racial Hit Dice, no level adjustment. Large, +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +9 Nat Armor, 30ft. move. Does that look balanced to you?
 
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IcyCool said:
Nifft said 'BROKEN!', and also gave an example of what he thought the problem was. You, of course, handily dismissed it.

Nifft didnt use any reasoning that is worth mentioning. I reword it slightly to apply to any race ever. If you ignore any and all downsides and only focus on the pluses then anything can appear overpowered.

I shouldnt even have given it the amount of time it took to type my reply to him. It was obviously completely wasted time.

Of course I handily dismissed it, just like everyone else should. It has no point and is completely useless for any discussion. Unless we are in a shouting match for who can shout the loudest I suppose.

IcyCool said:
As Yoda might say, "That, is why you fail."

So you are saying that yoda believed everyone without ever asking for proof? I think you misunderstand his lessons ;)

IcyCool said:
Yes, but the Kri'Loroth has an 18 strength, so your correction is wrong. The Kri'Loroth has +18 melee (+14 base + 4 strength mod) and +17 ranged (+14 base +3 dex)

+14 base (one less than the straight psychic warrior) +4 str -1 size = +17 melee for a combined change of -1 to attack vs the psychic warrior.

IcyCool said:
Wrong. A Kri'Loroth gets to use this ability on one more defensive power per every 4 levels of a psionic class. 18/4 = 4.5, round down to 4, not 3.

cool ;) not sure why I was thinking divided by 5.

IcyCool said:

So it isnt a direct benefit of the race, it could just as easily come from any sort of multiclassing to get different base saves. Multiclassing in general helps increase base saves most of the time. So, while it is a benefit, it is more of a failing of the system than an actual racial benefit and should be counted as such.

IcyCool said:
Yeah, I forgot some of the human's skill points. So they come out even. Without knowing what the Kri'Loroth class skills are (I'm betting they've got a psionic skill or two in there), I can't tell if they are 'lesser'.

I actually posted them, but since I only did it on the first page it would be easy to overlook.

Even in amount, but lesser choice. Human wins.

IcyCool said:
For a grand total of ... exactly the same number of feats.

The human has much better choices, human wins.

IcyCool said:
You don't see it being better than the human in everyway, and even with the human on the things Humans excel at? And you don't see this as a big strength?

In every way? I listed a bunch of different ways that each was ahead or behind the other.

A big strength is being even? I dont understand, that just doesnt make any sense.

In the case given here the human is ahead in some big ways and the Kri'Loroth is ahead in some big ways. This is very, very far from ahead in every way.


IcyCool said:
If you want my opinion, I'd ditch the whole Large but not really large deal, make them medium, make their Psi Ability only work on the two listed powers, and slap on either a +1 level adjustment. If you are deadset on keeping them the same, I'd at least recommend 1 racial hit die and +1 LA.

I don't recommend trying to balance something that isn't +0 LA with just Racial Hit Dice. The only WotC monsters I can think of that do are the poorly done Antrhopomorhpic Animals in the appendix of Savage Species. Try the Acid test on a few of them (particularly the Baleen Whale, if memory serves).

As it is, the Kri'Loroth is always a better choice than the human. You just need to look at it from both low levels and higher levels.

making them not large would mean needing to get rid of some of the stat boosts, which then adjusts the rest of the race accordingly, essentially starting over again along with not being in line with the race that it is modeling after.

The psi ability could be limited to just the two, do you really feel this is a big balance point? Does haveing a couple of extras as levels go up make it that much more powerful?

The baleen whale is interesting. 3d8 hd, +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +4 wis, 2+int*6 skill points, +9 natural armor, large size, skills: listen, spot, swim. All he really does is hit hard and is hard to hit, 'very' hard to adjucate. I wouldnt want to try to put an LA on this guy, all of them feel wrong in one way or another.

Still though, the list of pros and cons has big things on both sides at both the lowest level of comparison and the highest. If people literally feel that 2 manifestor levels and 2 6th level powers are that unimportant, along with less skill choice, less feat choice, then I am confused.

But the list as I see it again:
Pro: +20hp, +1 ini, +1 damage, low light vision, psi-ability, +1 reflex, +4 will
Con: -1 AC flatfooted, -1 BAB, -1 to hit, lesser skill choice for 20 points, lesser feat choice for 2 feats, 2 less 6th level powers known, 2 less manifestor levels

Definately not better than the human in every way. What has been left out? What about the first line is incredibly powerful compared to the second?
 

Scion, I see you've grown more unreasonable and rude in your responses, and folks just keep responding to your rudeness in kind. Try not to treat other peoples' opinions like crap, okay? Even those of us who aren't fundamentally opposed to the race you posted still acknowledge that you need to increase the Kri'Loroth's racial hit dice or Level Adjustment to make it fair. Or weaken the race instead. It's not like we aren't doing the math before we post. You seem to have even disregarded my post altogether, even though I posted a direct comparison of your race to the Half-Giants of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You don't seem to want any changes to your race, so why do you post and ask for opinions or whatnot if you won't take the advice or at least acknowledge it? Some of the posters may be responding purely on opinion and conjecture, but I assure you that many of us are not baseless in our conclusions. I have played and DMed characters possessing Level Adjustments, and I have spent a lot of time going over the 3rd Edition rules and how things ought to balance out. I am sure that some or many of the others who have responded likewise possess actual experience and study in such matters.

In any case, to try and help steer this towards some useful close...... I will waste much more of my time producing an even more extensive and concrete comparison and analysis for you, this once. Firstly, to debunk some stuff. Psionic feats are generally more powerful than normal feats, so gaining bonus psionic feats is more useful than bonus general feats, even though the selection is smaller, it's still much more potent, and since the race is geared towards psionics, it is much more likely to get the most out of its bonus psionic feats; only the uncommon Kri'Loroth wizard or fighter is going to be less than ecstatic about them. Secondly, the ability scores are not quite balanced against eachother but there will always be some that are great for one class but useless to another, and it will vary between classes. In general, Strength and Dexterity are slightly greater than the rest, while Wisdom and Charisma are the weakest by just a bit. To warriors this is more exaggerated, to spellcasters it's generally reversed. Overall, though, the above is true for most characters. Str/Dex simply affect more stuff of significance for most PCs/NPCs. But a huge bonus to one ability score is not exponentially better than a small bonus, though it is slightly better than what it would have been if divided amongst all ability scores. Thirdly, yes, many official creatures/races in the PH, MM, XPH, and SRD are weak for their Level Adjustment, but that doesn't mean that they're abysmal for it, and it doesn't mean that they can just be wholly disregarded balance-wise when devising a new race. It also doesn't mean that all of them suck for their LA, some are quite good despite it.

Fourthly, it would be mind-numbingly stupid to only compare ECL+ races at low levels, because low levels are the only time when their Level Adjustment is going to be crippling. At upper levels a mere 2-4 HD lost, especially if they would have been meager d4 HD from Wizard or Psion levels, is almost nothing compared to the 12+ or 16+ HD accumulated. Paper tigers grow into their niche and out of their fragility eventually, and their ECL is not based purely on their low-level usefulness, but also on their high-level munchkining capacity. The few manifester levels or caster levels sacrificed in some cases is more nasty, but not be a great deal. I.E. a 17th-level wizard with a +3 LA still has at least one 9th-level spell per day. Are you trying to keep your race down to a +2 ECL just to ensure that they gain access to 9th-level spells or powers by the time their group reaches 20th-level, even if the Kri'Loroth is a sorcerer or psion or whatever?

Now then, on to a quick rundown of how I estimate your race's viability and potency, so you have something to think about or refute if you must. After this, I'll post some sample characters to compare actual, complete stats with.

Fighter: For comparison's sake. 1 level of fighter is worth.... d10 HD = 2-3 Toughness feats, though Toughness is a bit weak. 2+Int mod SP = 1 Skill Focus feat, roughly, as ranks are generally a bit better to have than mere bonuses. Bonus feat = 1 feat of course. +1 BAB = 2 feats generally, as in Weapon Focus with one melee weapon and WF with one ranged weapon, generally speaking. +2 Fortitude = 1 feat of course. The proficiencies are only gained at 1st-level and not really important for this particular comparison. So, 1 level of fighter is generally worth 7-8 feats. Fighter's a kinda weak choice of class though (albeit still quite playable and useful), all things considered, so 1 level worth of stuff should be more like 10-12 feats in value.

Ability scores: +2 Str = 3-4 feats in value (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus, and Endurance, so to speak, in that it helps with melee attack rolls and most PCs will use 1-2 different melee weapons/attack types, and Str helps melee damage, plus three skills, and determines carrying capacities and such, plus it affects the numerous Str checks such as grapple checks, trip attempts, etc.). +2 Dex = 3-4 feats in value (Weapon Focus, Dodge, Skill Focus, Lightning Reflexes, and Improved Initiative, but weaker in the latter two; Dex helps many skills, plus ranged attacks, of which most characters use 1 or 2, and it helps AC, Reflex, and Initiative too). +2 Con = 2-3 feats in value (Toughness, Great Fortitude, and Skill Focus, though weaker with the latter two, as Con helps HP, Fortitude, and Concentration, plus it's important for holding breath, long marches, running after an enemy, and surviving deadly Con-damage poisons/diseases). +2 Int = 2-3 feats in value (Skill Focus mostly, in that Int affects many skills slightly, and it also grants extra skill points making it at least doubly valuable skills-wise, plus it's important in some prerequisites and important to wizards). +2 Wis = 2 feats in value (Iron Will and Alertness; Wis helps a fair number of skills but not so much as Dex or Int, and it helps Will saves, plus it's important for monks/divine casters, but otherwise it's pretty limited). +2 Cha = 2 feats in value (Skill Focus mostly, it helps with a decent number of skills like Wis does, but even less combat relevance, and it's important to a few classes but otherwise extremely limited). Considering how spread-out these benefits are, and that any given character may only really utilize half of them effectively or significantly, the Kri'Loroth's ability score adjustments strike me as being worth roughly 10 feats or so in value. There's a +1 Level Adjustment.

2 Aberration Hit Dice: In total, these grant: 2d8 HD, counting them as 2nd-level characters as a base for purposes of spells, effects, gaining feats and ability increases, etc., worth some paltry amount less than a feat; an average of 9hp, worth 3 Toughness feats or 2-1/2 better-balanced HP-giving feats; +1 BAB, worth 2 Weapon Focus feats; +3 Will, worth 1-1/2 Iron Will feats; 10+(5 x Int mod) skill points, worth 4-1/2 or so Skill Focus feats for the Kri'Loroth with their tendency to have good Int; Darkvision 60 ft., but Kri'Loroth get low-light vision instead, so worth maybe almost 1 feat; proficiency in all simple weapons, worth 1 feat of course; the need to eat, sleep, and breathe; and immunity to the tiny percentage of spells and effects that only work on Humanoids, worth maybe 1/2 a feat at the very, very most. Total: 13-14 feats in value. Worth a +1 LA for sure. This makes for a total of ECL 2 effectively; the racial hit dice's inferiority to normal class levels makes up for the Kri'Loroth's all-around good ability scores, more or less; actually worth a bit more than that, though.

2 bonus psionic feats: worth 2+ feats in value, probably worth 3-4 normal feats since Kri'Loroth are naturally psionic and possess some power points, thus able to use these feats regardless of class; as psionic feats are usually stronger than normal, more than compensating for the relatively modest number of feats to choose from for these bonus feats. Combined with the above, that puts the Kri'Loroth at a very good but acceptable total ECL value of +2 ,considering their lack of a human's racial traits (though the Kri'Loroth actually gets similar stuff through their racial benefits, it's not quite the same, and I already considered that stuff's value above).

Other stuff: Obviously the Kri'Loroth's further benefits demand another racial hit die or a +1 Level Adjustment, at least. +1 Power Point per hit die means they start with a number of PP equal to their HD, at least....this is worth roughly 3 feats IMHO, since early on it's only worth 1 feat or so but after just a few levels it becomes worth 2 feats, then near the middle levels it's worth 3 or so, and the gradual accumulation means that 3 feats is probably about fair for judging it. Psychic Voice is of minimal consequence, though it has some tiny advantages and disadvantages. Weak Build negates the primary benefits of being size Large, but not all of them; their Large size incurs -1 AC, -1 attack, -4 Hide, 10 feet of natural reach, greater carrying capacities, and the ability to wield larger, more damaging weapons. That last point makes up for the -1 attack penalty for the most part, but not fully, and the reach more than makes up for the rest, so at best, Large size and Weak Build balance out. Psi Ability is a sort of limited, but immediate and free rather than painful, Overchannel. I'd say it's worth 2 feats roughly, given that, but that might be a bit harsh or a bit cheap, though not by a lot.

So Kri'Loroth have around 5 feats or so worth of excess power beyond what they should for an ECL 2 race. Give them 3 racial hit dice instead of 2, and they should be fine. I've been fairly accomodating and generous in these estimations of the total worth of the race, so it's possible the Kri'Loroth are actually even better for some builds, but they could also be a bit worse for some other builds. Now, the opportunity cost of losing out on 2 or 3 manifester levels for a while hasn't been taken into account, but I don't think it's enough to make them worth only 2 racial HD in cost. So, on to the sample character comparisons, using your race as-is for these comparisons, to demonstrate.

Kri'Loroth Aberration 2, Psion (Kineticist) 18
HD: 2d8+18d4+60+20 (134 hp), AC 10, Initiative +1, BAB +10/+5, Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +16
Size Large, speed 30 feet, space/reach 10 ft./10 ft., grapple +10/+5
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 22, Wis 15, Cha 14
Full Attack: Large shortspear +9/+4 melee (1d10/x3); or 2 Large clubs +10/+5 ranged (1d8)
Manifester level 18, 431 power points, 33 powers known, maximum power level 9
Feats: 13, 7 any plus 6 psionic; Psionic Body, Body Fuel, Empower Power, Psionic Meditation, Narrow Mind, Overchannel, Talented, Quicken Power, Mind Over Body, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent
Skills: 25 skill points from Aberration hit dice, 115 skill points from Psion levels, 140 total; I don't know the Kri'Loroth's racial class skills, so I'm leaving out those 25 SP for now; Autohypnosis +23, Concentration +24, Intimidate +23, Knowledge (Local) +16, Knowledge (Psionics) +27, Psicraft +27
Kri'Loroth traits factored in (weak build, psychic voice, low-light vision, psi ability, +1 power point per hit die, 2 bonus psionic feats, favored class = any psionic class)

Human Psion (Kineticist) 20
HD: 20d4+40+20 (110 hp), AC 10, Initiative +0, BAB +10/+5, Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +13
Size Medium, speed 30 feet, space/reach 5 ft./5 ft., grapple +9/+4
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 13, Cha 12
Full Attack: Shortspear +9/+4 melee (1d8-1/x3); or 2 clubs +10/+5 ranged (1d6-1)
Manifester level 20, 407 power points, 36 powers known, maximum power level 9
Feats: 13, 8 any plus 5 psionic; Psionic Body, Body Fuel, Empower Power, Psionic Meditation, Narrow Mind, Overchannel, Talented, Quicken Power, Mind Over Body, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent
Skills: 140 skill points from Psion levels; Autohypnosis +24, Concentration +25, Intimidate +24, Knowledge (Local) +28, Knowledge (The Planes) +7, Knowledge (Psionics) +28, Psicraft +28
Human traits factored in (+1 skill point per level, bonus feat, favored class = highest-level class)

Differences: Kri'Loroth has 24 more HP, +1 greater Initiative, +1 more Fortitude, +1 more Reflex, +3 more Will. Kri'Loroth has a 10-foot reach. Kri'Loroth has +1 more on grapple checks. Kir'Loroth has 24 more power points, but 2 fewer actual manifester levels and 3 fewer powers known. Kri'Loroth wields bigger weapons, generally deals 1-2 more damage per hit. Kri'Loroth has to spend its initial 25 skill points a bit differently, but the difference in skill totals and the usefulness of the skills is minimal. The save and Init benefits are about 2 feats extra, the HP is like 5 feats extra, the other stuff is maybe 1 feat or so extra. Plus the Kri'loroth's Psi Ability, and low-light vision, which make for another 2-3 feats worth of power. And the miscellaneous benefits from the Large size and the +2 on all ability scores (the somewhat minor stuff not detailed above, like the occasional need to resist a trip, carry a heavy load around, having an extra language known, getting +1 on charisma-type stuff to interact with NPCs, +1 on various skill checks like Balance or Spot when needed, etc.).

Altogether, this is very close to a +1 Level Adjustment worth of extra stuff for the Kri'Loroth, despite the 2 missing manifester levels (which only really cost them a few meager powers known, and a minor reduction in the maximum number of power points the Kri'Loroth can spend on augmentations and metapsionics). The Kri'Loroth's Psi Ability combined with the Overchannel feat and such allow them to pretty significantly boost their manifester level and powers through augmentation and stuff, so the loss of 2 manifester levels is laughable in how little it will ever be noticed, and I doubt it would ever really weaken the Kri'Loroth at such levels.
 
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Arkhandus said:
Scion, I see you've grown more unreasonable and rude in your responses, and folks just keep responding to your rudeness in kind.

If you say so. Werk was the first to throw stones and then some others joined in. I have only responded rudely to people who were rude. Treat in kind ::shrugs:: if you feel that they were not rude and I was that is your call of course.

The people who are nice get nice responses in return, IcyCool and I are having a civil discussion.

Arkhandus said:
Try not to treat other peoples' opinions like crap, okay?

I dismissed comments that were not relevant to the topic or not helpful to actually finding a good way to do this. That is not treating them poorly, it is merely trying to get real information.

They might have the best idea in the world and know exactly what the problem is, but how am I supposed to know without supporting evidence? Why should I bother with random comments that dont pertain to the subject? I have asked this a few times and no one has answered except with more of this sort of thing. Avoiding the subject I guess. Easier to attack instead of defend the position.

Arkhandus said:
Even those of us who aren't fundamentally opposed to the race you posted still acknowledge that you need to increase the Kri'Loroth's racial hit dice or Level Adjustment to make it fair.

Now for the all important question, 'why? compared to what?'

There is a high level and a low level comparison now. If you can point to one of those and say, 'this is unbalanced and here is why' then go for it, if not then make up your own example, if you can do neither then all the extra racial hd or LA is just a guess without any ability to know if it is a good one or not.

Arkhandus said:
It's not like we aren't doing the math before we post.

If the math is already done then why not post it?

Arkhandus said:
You seem to have even disregarded my post altogether, even though I posted a direct comparison of your race to the Half-Giants of the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

It was part of your edit, so I did miss it. Lets look over it then.

• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity
• Giant
• Medium
• Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision
• Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
• Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
• Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
• Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Ignan.
• Favored Class: Psychic warrior.
• Level Adjustment: +1.

ok, so we have these differences (note, they are absolute, so the dex bonus will seem extreme):
+4 dex, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha in favor of the Kri'Loroth
giant vs aberration
medium vs large
powerful build vs weak build
fire acclimated for half-giants
2 pp vs 1pp/hd
psi-ability for Kri'Loroth
Stomp 1/day for half-giant
2 bonus psionic feats for Kri'Loroth
+1 LA vs 2hd
favored class psychic warrior vs psionic class

ok, so the halfgiant counts as large in pretty much every way that matters but doesnt get the penalties. The Kri'Loroth counts as medium in pretty much every way that mattes + gets the penalties of being large.

The Kri'Loroth has better stat boosts, more pp eventually, 2 more psionic feats.
The half-giant gets stomp 1/day, fire acclimation.

The Kri'Loroth has 2 hd, the Halfgiant has LA +1.

I think I covered everything.

who is better off I think is a tough call. The Kri'Loroth has more beanies and some are very nice, true. However, the half-giant has a class level over him along with getting boosts in grapple, hiding, and, maybe the most important, in damage potential.

The half-giant will tend to wind up doing much more damage (1 weapon size increase, +1 to hit, one more level of class abilities) than the Kri'Loroth while the Kri'Loroth has advantages in other directions.

Can you say that one is definately better than the other all of the time as you said in your previous post?

Arkhandus said:
You don't seem to want any changes to your race

I dont mind changing it, if there is a reason to do so. Saying that it is 'definately' in need of change without any proof doesnt help, giving proof is what is needed.

Arkhandus said:
Firstly, to debunk some stuff. Psionic feats are generally more powerful than normal feats

Do you have any examples of this off hand? If you do, how many counterexamples do I have to give before you would be convince that it is not?

While many psionic feats have bigger numbers they also generally need focus to work, which is 'highly' limiting.

In any event, having an 'any' feat is a much, much more powerful option than a 'psionic feat'. Do you agree?

Arkhandus said:
Secondly, the ability scores are not quite balanced against eachother but there will always be some that are great for one class but useless to another, and it will vary between classes.

Which means that having a bonus to all will rarely help a character more than having a bonus to 2 or 3 of the stats. But, by having an equal bonus to each it does not push towards or away from any class.

Overall though what stat is best depends on a lot of different factors, generally none is better than the others by itself.

Arkhandus said:
But a huge bonus to one ability score is not exponentially better than a small bonus, though it is slightly better than what it would have been if divided amongst all ability scores.

This I very much disagree with. A +4 to a single stat is much better than a +2 to 2 stats. A single high plus is easier to min/max than the others and can cause problems more easily.

Arkhandus said:
Thirdly, yes, many official creatures/races in the PH, MM, XPH, and SRD are weak for their Level Adjustment, but that doesn't mean that they're abysmal for it, and it doesn't mean that they can just be wholly disregarded balance-wise when devising a new race. It also doesn't mean that all of them suck for their LA, some are quite good despite it.

But, it also does not mean that any other race should not be tried to be judged on an equal basis with the core races.

As a wild example, we have race 1 which is balanced, then race 2 is based off of it but isnt perfectly balanced for whatever reason, then race 3 is based off of race 2, then race 4 based off of race 3.. eventually you have some wild fluctuations well outside of the control of any system. Better to just base it off of race 1 each time to some degree. Much like with systems of measurement you always go as close back to the original as possible instead of copies of copies of copies of copies.

Arkhandus said:
Fourthly, it would be mind-numbingly stupid to only compare ECL+ races at low levels

And just as stupid to ignore low level comparisons. A race should be as closed to balanced over the entire range as possible.

Arkhandus said:
Now then, on to a quick rundown of how I estimate your race's viability and potency, so you have something to think about or refute if you must. After this, I'll post some sample characters to compare actual, complete stats with.

Trying to convert everything to feats is always a bad move. It rarely translates well, especially over such a wide range. I dropped something earlier about the large sized penalties and two feats, but it wasnt a big comparison, just to get an idea. Comparing whole classes/races in this way and nothing will ever be balanced to one another. Especially as some things are worth more than others at levels.

As an easy example, one could easily say that +2 str is worth an unbounded number of feats: weapon focus for every weapon ever, weapon specialization for every weapon ever

Now, obviously this is meaningless. But it shows a problem. Where does one draw the line? If each stat is roughly equivalent but you rate one as 4 feats but another as 2 feats that means you believe that one stat is twice as good as the other in general. I very much disagree with that assessment.

Arkhandus said:
2 bonus psionic feats: worth 2+ feats in value, probably worth 3-4 normal feats

So, you are saying that 2 psionic feats are worth more than 2 feats?

I dont want to be insulting, but this is crazy talk. This is why I want people to give their reasonings so that I know which to count and which to discount. Saying that a feat is worth more than a feat (or, in math terms 1>1) just doent make any sense at all.

It also begs the question: Normal feats? what are they? I woudl consider a humans feat to be 'normal', you can choose from any feat that you qualify for. Strangely, that means that psionic feats can be included in this subset, which means to me that you are saying that a huge set is less than a subset of that huge set.

Arkhandus said:
Other stuff: Obviously the Kri'Loroth's further benefits demand another racial hit die or a +1 Level Adjustment, at least.

I know you dont want to hear this, but I dont think that the feat comparison really holds up under scruitiny. I know you put a lot of effort into it and my throwing it away as something that does not help me might upset you, and I am sorry about that :( But I can only use comparisons that I feel are at least somewhat valid, I dont feel that with the feat conversion way.
 

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