New Revision Spotlight: Attacks of Opportunity
- Thread starter Dark Jezter
- Start date
Number47
First Post
In order to make sense of the new AoO rule, I think we can make a couple of logical arguments that don't actually change the rules at all. One is that there are two kinds of helpless people, standing and prone. For the prone helpless victim (unconscious, sleeping, etc.), you do not get an AoO because it takes more than a split-second reaction to stab a body on the floor. For the standing helpless (Hold spells), I think we can envision that as the Hold spell (or whatever) takes effect the person draws in tight to themselves. Sword and shield close to body (or whatever). Again, not leaving an opening that a split-second reaction can take advantage of.
It doesn't change anything, and puts logic to the rules stated. Mind you, you can use any excuse you want to do anything you want in your game. This is just giving a reasonable amount of logic behind the rules as written for those demanding it.
It doesn't change anything, and puts logic to the rules stated. Mind you, you can use any excuse you want to do anything you want in your game. This is just giving a reasonable amount of logic behind the rules as written for those demanding it.
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Dingleberry said:
Snip for brevity...
the multiple swings thing boils down to TWO cases...
An AoO represents the attacker recognizing an opening and thus deciding to make an attack there...
or...
The lapse in defense allows a swing already in progress to slip by.
The latter seems to be what you are meaning.
Unfortunately the CHOICE to do an AOO or NOT makes the former a more accurate description.
**********************
A new Model for AoOs...
While i still have to ponder it, I am working on the germ of what AoOs will be like in my next game.
1. Add helpless to the list of "allows AoO" things.
2. Consider adding loss of dex bonus as well.
3. Consider Using the m20 concentration check definition.. any action that provokes an AoO can be interruprted by the AoO and prevented unless a check is made.
4. Make AoOs NOT a free swing at all but one of your next round's attacks.
The benefit from an AoO, in this model, is that you get to do an attack in response to an opening. The lapse in defense means you get to make the attack SOONER and get an interruption chance.
It is not going to allow you six extra swings against a skilled, dodging, but stupid archer while restricting you to your normal attacks against a table which is not defensing at all.
What it does is allow you to do is to get a shot in before you would normally be able to do BECAUSE of the lack of defense.
A normal guy would only be able to "move up" one attack, regardless of his iteratives... someone with combat reflexes would be able to move up as many attacks as he can make with a fulll round action.
again...
AOO != MORE swings
AOO = getting to swing sooner
**************
With this model, the balance concerns for drop-him and follow up are drastically reduced. It would only be a concern if you dropped the enemy with your last swing in a round. otherwise you just go ahead and use your normal attacks to finish him.
***************
The thing that will be needed is a simple couple of rules for what happens when your next round comes up. If you used an attack ahead of time in an AoO... what are your options now?
It will be fairly simple... it will work JUST AS IF you had waited and you have now made your attack(s).
By the rules now after my first swing i can decide between an MEA or going full attack for iterative swings.
Same here. I can choose between MEA and continuing with my full attack sequence.
its not really complex at all. its just like where you are after your first swing has been made.
if you took multiple AoOs, you are into a full attack action and continue from there.
AoO = sooner, not more.
AoO = attack made to interrupt or prevent, not free attacks to do more damage.
While i still have to ponder it, I am working on the germ of what AoOs will be like in my next game.
1. Add helpless to the list of "allows AoO" things.
2. Consider adding loss of dex bonus as well.
3. Consider Using the m20 concentration check definition.. any action that provokes an AoO can be interruprted by the AoO and prevented unless a check is made.
4. Make AoOs NOT a free swing at all but one of your next round's attacks.
The benefit from an AoO, in this model, is that you get to do an attack in response to an opening. The lapse in defense means you get to make the attack SOONER and get an interruption chance.
It is not going to allow you six extra swings against a skilled, dodging, but stupid archer while restricting you to your normal attacks against a table which is not defensing at all.
What it does is allow you to do is to get a shot in before you would normally be able to do BECAUSE of the lack of defense.
A normal guy would only be able to "move up" one attack, regardless of his iteratives... someone with combat reflexes would be able to move up as many attacks as he can make with a fulll round action.
again...
AOO != MORE swings
AOO = getting to swing sooner
**************
With this model, the balance concerns for drop-him and follow up are drastically reduced. It would only be a concern if you dropped the enemy with your last swing in a round. otherwise you just go ahead and use your normal attacks to finish him.
***************
The thing that will be needed is a simple couple of rules for what happens when your next round comes up. If you used an attack ahead of time in an AoO... what are your options now?
It will be fairly simple... it will work JUST AS IF you had waited and you have now made your attack(s).
By the rules now after my first swing i can decide between an MEA or going full attack for iterative swings.
Same here. I can choose between MEA and continuing with my full attack sequence.
its not really complex at all. its just like where you are after your first swing has been made.
if you took multiple AoOs, you are into a full attack action and continue from there.
AoO = sooner, not more.
AoO = attack made to interrupt or prevent, not free attacks to do more damage.
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Petrosian said:
Looking over your ideas, here's another one I thought of -
What happens in AoO's using feats like Power Attack or Expertise?
Currently, your AoO(s) for the round as modified by your feats in use, if you'r attacking/have attacked at -5 to hit for PA, then your AoO is -5 also.
But in your new AoO model, the theoretical AoO is coming from next round. Can I (the player) now argue that even though I used a -5 PA this round, the AoO coming to me right in the middle of my attacks is actually coming from "next round" and shouldn't be modified by the "current round" -5 to hit?
Personally (and no offense intended and IMO) I think trying to justify AoO's as "future attacks just spent now" is going to cause you (and your players) a lot of confusion and book-keeping, especially if you get into multiple AoO's and how that modifies your actions in the next round. If you take multiple AoO's (swinging more than once) does it then mean you're automatically forced into taking a Full Attack Action for next round? Is your movement limited to 5' after multiple AoO swings(since you already went)? To only MEA's if you swung once?
If this new model AoO works for what you want to see in your games, go for it. I'll be happy to try to offer constructive critisism if possible.
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Number47
First Post
What if somebody wanted to do a full-round action? According to your model, they are pretty well stuck with doing either a MEA + Standard or Full Attack. This is especially bad if they drop the guy they AoO, or the guy just moves away from them. They just lost all their attacks on their next init by making an AoO!
Another one I just thought of -
Using your "new model AoO" you realize that you will not be able to disengage/move away from an opponent without provoking an AoO on the round after you have taken an AoO because you are doing something other than "just moving" (you have taken an "attack" and will take a "move", even though your attack actually happened last round).
Whoa, that was a massive run-on sentence.
Using your "new model AoO" you realize that you will not be able to disengage/move away from an opponent without provoking an AoO on the round after you have taken an AoO because you are doing something other than "just moving" (you have taken an "attack" and will take a "move", even though your attack actually happened last round).
Whoa, that was a massive run-on sentence.
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demiurgeastaroth
Explorer
My guess is, it's actually the first one. It's lkely that several apparent openings crop up in a round, and you try to take advantage of them while making those virtual attacks we don't roll for. The AoO situation is one of the few such where there is a genuine chance of turning the opening into a hit, due to the lowering of defence.Petrosian said:
Darren
[/B][/QUOTE]
So its NO CHANGE to how PA and Expertise and the lot interact with AoOs.
one swing means you start the round AS IF you had just taken one swing... so you are at the point of decision between full attack and mea.
more than one aoo swing means you are in full attack, so you can use any remaining iterative attacks and use a 5' move.
Againm the notion is landing a blow sooner, taking advantage of an opportunity, not gaining a half dozen or more new swings against defending foes.
Just like it does now... the penalties continue through until your next roudn begins. You are not starting your round early, just getting a swing early.Zenon said:
So its NO CHANGE to how PA and Expertise and the lot interact with AoOs.
If by bookkeeeping you mean keeping tracvk of how many AoOs you used in between your last round and this one, yeah that will have to be tracked.Zenon said:
I answered that already.Zenon said:
one swing means you start the round AS IF you had just taken one swing... so you are at the point of decision between full attack and mea.
more than one aoo swing means you are in full attack, so you can use any remaining iterative attacks and use a 5' move.
Againm the notion is landing a blow sooner, taking advantage of an opportunity, not gaining a half dozen or more new swings against defending foes.
If someone want to do a full round action, he should think about that when he CHOOSES to take the AOO or not.
There was this game once that emphasized TOUGH CHOICES as a good thing.
With AoOs as a free thing it is rare that you should conisder not taking one. Thats because they are FREE.
By making them not so wondrous a thing... not a freebie... but just an opportune use of your normal combat things... then it becomes a lot more balanced of a choice...
if i swing to stop this guy, i will not be able to do a double move charge over to that guy... if i take two swings now, i lock myslef into this spot.
AoOs become an advantage in that you land them NOW rather than then, in that they give you an interrupt chance, but they also do commit your course of action.
In some ways, you might want to look at AoOs as a special form of ready action... not just freebie force multipliers... they give you an option to apply your swings for more benefit but dont make it more damaging.
There was this game once that emphasized TOUGH CHOICES as a good thing.
With AoOs as a free thing it is rare that you should conisder not taking one. Thats because they are FREE.
By making them not so wondrous a thing... not a freebie... but just an opportune use of your normal combat things... then it becomes a lot more balanced of a choice...
if i swing to stop this guy, i will not be able to do a double move charge over to that guy... if i take two swings now, i lock myslef into this spot.
AoOs become an advantage in that you land them NOW rather than then, in that they give you an interrupt chance, but they also do commit your course of action.
In some ways, you might want to look at AoOs as a special form of ready action... not just freebie force multipliers... they give you an option to apply your swings for more benefit but dont make it more damaging.
Number47 said:
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