New rogue special abilities.

[Aust Diamondew]

Would it be balanced to allow hide in plain sight and death attack (DC 10+1/2 Rogue level+ int. mod.) as rogue special abilities. I thought of this idea 3 or 4 days ago and have toyed around with it and decided to see what you all think. I don't paticuarly like the assasin class or the shadow dancer and I think these abilities fit perferctly into some rogue character concepts (such as the assasin and the guy whos so freaky stealthy he's pratically invisible).
Thanks.

 

[James McMurray]

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Sejs]

I kept Death Attack as a feature of the Assassin prc, but I've added Hide In Plain Sight and Quick Sneak (similar to the NotCM feature - removes the penalty for moving faster while using the Move Silently skill) to the list of rogue spec. abilities. Uh, in games I run that is.

Hasn't unbalanced anything so far.

 

[UltimaGabe]

...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of making the classes to begin with? I don't think it's balanced at all. Some Rogues would benefit from higher Strength and Constitution, so why not add Rage in there too? Heck, spells are great for a Rogue- let them get the equivalent of a level of Wizard or Cleric as a Special Ability too. Wisdom bonus to AC? Flurry of Blows? Don't mind if I do!

Look, those abilities aren't available to Rogues for a reason. Just because an ability fits a Rogue doesn't mean it should be added to the Rogue class- if you could get Hide in Plain Sight just from being a Rogue, why would anyone ever take the Shadowdancer class? If you could get Death Attack, why take Assassin? Especially considering your Death Attack is going to be just as good as a 5th-level Assassins when you first get it- so you're actually going to be BETTER at Death Attack than a normal Assassin.

There's a point where it's okay to add certain abilities to things because they fit a character concept- but when that ability is the entire crux of a prestige class, something that requires LEVELS to get, you're WAY overstepping that line.

 

[Malin Genie]

if you could get Hide in Plain Sight just from being a Rogue, why would anyone ever take the Shadowdancer class? If you could get Death Attack, why take Assassin? Especially considering your Death Attack is going to be just as good as a 5th-level Assassins when you first get it- so you're actually going to be BETTER at Death Attack than a normal Assassin.

There's a point where it's okay to add certain abilities to things because they fit a character concept- but when that ability is the entire crux of a prestige class, something that requires LEVELS to get, you're WAY overstepping that line.

The original post states that the poster doesn't like those prestige classes. So presumably if he ran a campaign, he wouldn't have the Assassin or Shadowdancer available, so the comparison is moot.

The question is then "in the absence of those Prestige Classes, are 'Death Attack' and 'Hide in Plain Sight' unbalanced Rogue abilities?" Personally I think they are more powerful than the other listed Rogue abilities - why would you choose 'defensive roll' over 'hide in plain sight'? But perhaps if they were toned down or the alternatives made more appealing (and frankly, I think rogues need some extra incentive to stay with the class...) they could fit in nicely.

 

[Lord Rasputin]

Hide in Plain Sight? I can't think of a good reason not to do so, and I permit it in my game, though right now I have yet to have a rogue make it to such high a level. I would think UA's need of Camouflage first would be a decent one.

Citing UA leads me to my followup. The ranger gets HIPS. At this point, so what if the rogue gets it? He is giving up another SA to get it, at a minimum, so he can hide as well as a ranger.

I don't agree on Death Attack, however. That should be assassin-only. It doesn't fit that well with the other rogue high-level SAs, I might note.

Say, will the Complete Adventurer have new rogue SAs? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Gort]

I've never seen anyone fail a death attack DC before...

 

[PallidPatience]

I have, Gort, but it was the Favoured Soul PC in the party.

I don't think that HiPS would be unbalanced as a Rogue SA; nor do I think Death Attack would be too rough.

 

[rrealm]

I've never seen anyone fail a death attack DC before...

I have too but we had a corrupt DM.

 

[rrealm]

IMO Death attack is a very distinct assassin ability so I wouldn’t allow rogues to take it. Hide in plain sight, maybe. It shouldn’t be as good as a prestige class that gets it since they spend levels to get it but the concept of rogues having hide in plain sight seams fine with me. All hide in plain sight checks are at a -10 penalty compared to that of a shadow dancer? To me, it makes picking between this hide in plain sight, crippling strike, and defensive roll a tough choice. Plus it wouldn’t take away from one of the high points of taking the shadow dancer or similar PrC (for campaigns that allow them of course). Comments?