New rogue special abilities.

[Li Shenron]

...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of making the classes to begin with?

First it should be still possible to play the game without PrCls. Maybe HiPS and Death Attack are not so unique abilities that can only be concieved as 'secret knowledge' kept by a group, but rather techniques which may require not much more effort that to learn to sneak attack for example.
You could even make them into feats with appropriately high requirements; in any case, Rogue's special abilities don't come before level 10*.

Second, even if you decide that HiPS is special enough to restrict it to a PrCl, at least it is pretty sad that you can only take the whole PrCl only to have an ability. I see no reason why every character in the world who knows the technique of death attack also knows to use poison, has 4 ranks in disguise and can cast some spells...

*and note that HiPS and death attack are 1st-level benefits of the 2 PrCls, so a PC could have them respectively at level 8 and level 6 if he meets the PrCl requisites; it won't be unbalancing if an alternative requisite was Rogue level 10.

Those Rogue's special abilities are effectively feats with prerequisite 10 levels in Rogue, which means slightly better than regular feats. The real point here is to evaluate if HiPS and Death Attack are slightly better than regular feats, or too good to be taken as a single rogue special ability.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think it would be ok to grant rogues death attack and hide in plain sight. Two of the ways a rogue can go are the stalker and the assassin. The Assassin PrC is just a special kind of assassin that can use spells, too. The shadowdancer is accompanied by a shadow and has other shadow abilities.

In addition to death attack, I'd make Poison Use a feat or something like that (IMO it would not be enough to warrant its own rogue ability).

Come to think of it, I just got the idea to make "specialist rogues" by assembling special packages they can take at level 10 instead of one of the rogue special abilities. Assassin rogues might get poison use and death attack, and so on.

 

[reanjr]

Would it be balanced to allow hide in plain sight and death attack (DC 10+1/2 Rogue level+ int. mod.) as rogue special abilities. I thought of this idea 3 or 4 days ago and have toyed around with it and decided to see what you all think. I don't paticuarly like the assasin class or the shadow dancer and I think these abilities fit perferctly into some rogue character concepts (such as the assasin and the guy whos so freaky stealthy he's pratically invisible).
Thanks.

I think it would be iffy, but probably OK. I'd watch it carefully and tell the testing player you have the right to rescind the ability for replacement.

I think they would both work better (especially Death Attack) if they somehow has a prerequisite ability (a weak one). The abilities are pretty good, and if you compare an assassin's Death Attack DC to the what the rogue's would be if he took this at 10th level, it's a pretty powerful ability. I don't remember when the shadowdancer gets hide in plain sight, but I think it's pretty high level as well.

 

[reanjr]

What would you use for the prerequisites for the Death Attack feat? Anything save or die should have tough prerequisites. I am curious what you think would be suitable.

Probably something along the lines of:
Weapon Focus (weapon being used, they have to be good with the weapon)
Hide (8 ranks) (shows that they have put effort into being sneaky)
Move Silently (8 ranks) (same as Hide)
Concentration (8 ranks) (shows some sort of focus for the attack)
Steady Hand (see below)

Then you can have the Steady Hand feat which allows a +2 insight (circumstance?) bonus to an attack that you spend a full round action setting up and planning. Not too useful on its own, but not absolutely useless either. Good balance for a prerequisite to Death Attack.

Interestingly enough, the skill requirements make Bard, Monk, and Ranger the optimal classes for this feat, which I think is even more appropriate than rogue, especially Bard and Ranger.

 

[Randy]

Rogue specials

I would like to see rogues made a little better for some skills myself..... But death attack and Hips should come at a high price for the rogue considering they do come from the prestige classes and prestige classes are something that takes a bit of work to get to. Not something you should be able to just get a first level.

 

[Li Shenron]

What would you use for the prerequisites for the Death Attack feat? Anything save or die should have tough prerequisites. I am curious what you think would be suitable.

If it is going to be a Rogue special ability and not a feat, the prerequisite is already there: Rogue level 10.

If you want to make it available to everyone, I would not replicate the Assassin's PrCl requirements. I'd rather require something similar to BAB +5 and Sneak Attack +1d6. No sneak attack required makes no sense.

And by the way I forgot to mention that absolutely the DC must be changed to 10 + half character level + Int, because the Assassin's Death Attack DC takes into account the fact there are only 10 levels and you have at least 5 levels in a core class, so at best even the bonus to Assassin's DC is 2/3 your character level.

 

[Malin Genie]

And by the way I forgot to mention that absolutely the DC must be changed to 10 + half character level + Int.

Agree completely. It would have the nice bonus effect of allowing an Assassin to reach a higher Death Attack DC more quickly than a Rogue (if a Rog10 and a Rog5/Asn5 would have DC 15 + Int, a Rog15 would have DC 17 + Int, a Rog5/Asn10 DC 20 + Int.)

 

[Red Spire Press]

A quick reply here so as not to hijack the thread. In Dark Legacies, we've taken the approach (what we believe was the original intention) that prestige classes should be organization-focused as much as possible. That, a higher degree of grit and lethality, and a general desire to make classes feel complete and rewarding over their entire progression rather than "having" to move into a prestige class led us to add death attack to the rogue class as an available special ability (as well as changing a few other things with the rogue class, specifically). The DL system has been thoroughly playtested and no problems were encountered. Just an FYI.

 

[Chris Parker]

Personally I think they are more powerful than the other listed Rogue abilities - why would you choose 'defensive roll' over 'hide in plain sight'?

Ever taken a good look at Epic Dodge?

Epic totally aside, its always been my belief that noone should have to prestige. Core classes should be as flexible as possible to allow someone to stay with it for a long period of time. Fighter, Wizard are both infinitely flexible.

Some things, like Paladin (and thier pesky tendency to become blackguards), make alot of assumptions about characters. Assassin is a very similar case... comeon, Assassins with spells? Thats just silly. Maybe a bit more of a Ninja flavored prestige class, that allowed spell like abilities, but not everyone who kills others for profit (and on contract) is even going to be a member of a guild... much less know spells.

Ive always ruled Rogues can get Death Attack, and the formula for Death Attack, for everyone who has it, is 1/2 Class Levels + Assassin Levels + 10 + INT mod. It makes the DC a bit higher, but seeing as how my group usually ends up running away, I must be doing something right.

 

[Destil]

I've been allowing the following and never had any problems with them:

Lightning strike (ex): Whenever an opponent you threaten is denied their Dexterity bonus against you, you may make an immediate attack of opportunity against them. You may only use this once per round. (Note that this extra attack of opportunity is not a sneak attack when you feint an opponent, since the feint bonus only applies to a single attack. In such a situation you feint, make an attack (no Dex) and then take your free attack (Dex bonus applies)).

Skilled slight of hand (ex): You may pick pocket any object you can hold in one hand easily (your size or smaller), with no penalty due to the size of the object. You could draw a fighters sword before he could, in some cases, and usually without him noticing...

Faceless (ex): In an urban environment with ten or more people about you can hide in plain sight by simply blending into the crowd, even if being watched. People have a hard time remembering your face, so any disguise penalties you may incur through someone’s familiarity with you (such as having wanted posters plastered across the city, or having run in with a certain town guard before) are negated.

Lightning feint (ex): You may make a feint as a free action once per round.

Ambush (ex): During a surprise round you may make a single extra attack as a free action.

Thorn in their side (ex): If others are flanking a target you gain the benefits of flanking against that target, even when you are not yourself flanking. This only applies to melee attacks.