New Skill System (Part 1: The Basics)

[Sound of Azure]

Cool, the list is much easier to read!

Good points on the simplicity thing. I tend to veer between wanting complexity and simplicity at different times. I can understand the desire for easier book-keeping, and keeping the focus on deeds, not numbers!
It's perhaps a good thing to start simply, and add complexity (specialisations, etc) only if you want to.

In any case, I'll be following this thread as you develop and tweak the skills. It's just interesting enough to put in my Bits n bobs folder of potential house rules. Nice work!

 

[Meatboy]

I really like this. It takes some of the book keeping out of your characters which I usually like. I can't remember the last time a character who took a skill didn't have max rank in it.

The only issue, which is one I have with dnd skills in general, is that there is no way to have someone at low level (see npcs) be as skilled as they should be with out decent BAB, HP and what not.

 

[SteveC]

This looks very much like something that I've been working on for a while now, so of course I must say that I like it .

Here are a couple suggestions:

First, have you considered removing the absolute connection between an attribute and a skill? What I mean by this is that you can have ranks in a skill like Awareness and then have the GM say "roll wis + awareness" to represent a spot roll, or "roll int + awareness" for a search check...and so on. This allowed me to reduce the size of the skill list down to...13 I think, including skills for combat, arcane and divine magic.

Second, for skills that are basically "meta skills" such as perform or profession, why not steal a page from spycraft and have proficiencies. Characters receive one proficiency for free, then one for every four ranks in the given skill. Each proficiency lets you roll a check on the meta skill at no penalty. Other skills are rolled at one lower level. So, for example, you might have:

Level 1 character with perform at master level. That give them a +4 bonus with the skill, which translates into 2 proficiencies. The character might take proficiency in singing and stringed instruments. When rolling those checks, he adds +4 (his full ranks), while should he want to rock out on the drums, he would have a +2 bonus.

Combining the first point, you might have such a character roll cha + perform for singing or dex + perform for strings.

Just my thoughts, but you have a GREAT idea here, and I'd love to hear what you do with it.

--Steve

 

[airwalkrr]

First, have you considered removing the absolute connection between an attribute and a skill? What I mean by this is that you can have ranks in a skill like Awareness and then have the GM say "roll wis + awareness" to represent a spot roll, or "roll int + awareness" for a search check...and so on. This allowed me to reduce the size of the skill list down to...13 I think, including skills for combat, arcane and divine magic.

I shall have to think about this one more carefully. I had considered the idea but quickly discarded it once I realized that it added an additional level of complexity that wasn't, IMHO, entirely necessary. I like being able to simply say "roll and Alertness check," let the PC look at one number on the page and add the d20. However, this is indeed something I will consider a bit more. On one hand, it does seem more realistic, on the other, my goal is to eschew complication and this seems a retrograde step. Perhaps there is a hidden key somewhere to make it both simple and more realistic.

Second, for skills that are basically "meta skills" such as perform or profession, why not steal a page from spycraft and have proficiencies. Characters receive one proficiency for free, then one for every four ranks in the given skill. Each proficiency lets you roll a check on the meta skill at no penalty. Other skills are rolled at one lower level. So, for example, you might have:

Level 1 character with perform at master level. That give them a +4 bonus with the skill, which translates into 2 proficiencies. The character might take proficiency in singing and stringed instruments. When rolling those checks, he adds +4 (his full ranks), while should he want to rock out on the drums, he would have a +2 bonus.

Combining the first point, you might have such a character roll cha + perform for singing or dex + perform for strings.

Now that is a fine suggestion. My only concern is that it is yet another level of complexity. I believe allowing the DM to simply decide what is reasonable for the character to know works, however, adding this in as a variant option for DMs who don't like to make decisions like this or simply desire more precision in their games would probably be a wise course of action. Thank you.

 

[PallidPatience]

Hmm. I like it. Of course, at the same time, it almost feels like PCs wouldn't ever achieve enough skill ranks. How do you address the point that, instead of being able to be poorly skilled in variable fields, now characters with few skill points have to pick a couple of skills and commit to them almost absolutely? At the same time, wouldn't languages become extravagantly overpriced in this system? Who has the skill points anymore to learn to speak anything? Only diplomats would be able to communicate with foreigners, it seems. Farmers who live on the border (Alsace Lorraine) would be out of skill points, since they need Profession, Lore, and whatnot to farm, so they'd not be able to communicate with anyone but each other.

This very much forces the average person to overspecialize.

 

[airwalkrr]

Thank you for the feedback, PallidPatience. It sounds a bit hyperbolic though. Consider this example. Under the standard 3e rules, a 20th level human fighter with a 10 Intelligence will have 69 skill points, enough to max out three skills. The player wishes his fighter to be very athletic, so chooses Climb, Jump, and Swim. Now consider this counterexample using the house rules I propose. Under these rules, a 20th level human fighter with a 10 Intelligence will have six skill points (at present, I am giving humans 2 bonus skill points at first level only). This is enough for the character to have mastery in three skills. Even if you only give him 1 bonus skill point for being a human, he still has mastery in two skills and proficiency in 1. If this fighter had mastery in Athletics, Influence, and Handle Animal, that is the equivalent of 184 skill points, almost three times the number of skill points a typical fighter would have. The fighter could dump mastery in Influence to learn two languages and still have the equivalent of more skill points than the 3e fighter.

We've looked at one of the least skilled classes, now let's examine the most skilled: the rogue. Under standard 3e rules, a 20th level human rogue with a 14 Intelligence will have 253 skill points, enough to max out 11 skills. On the other hand, under my system, a 20th level human rogue with a 14 Intelligence will have 21 skill points, enough to have mastery in 10 skills and proficiency in one more. Let's assume the character chooses four languages (the 3e equivalent of 8 skill points), mastery in Acrobatics, Alertness, Chicanery, Disable Device, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Use Magic Device (the 3e equivalent of 368 skill points). He also has proficiency in Influence (33 skill points). That is the equivalent of 409 skill points, 156 more than the 3e rogue.

If anything, I think the case could be made that this system gives away too many skill points (whether or not that is a good thing I'll leave to you to decide), but concerns about too few I believe are off the mark.

Additionally, farmers don't need Profession and Lore; they just need Profession to earn a living. This allows a human farmer to have mastery in one other skill besides Profession like Athletics, Alertness or Handle Animal, proficiency in two other skills, or possibly two languages. Exceptionally intelligent farmers (Int 12+) might have the luxury of knowing a few more skills or another language. Dwarf and Elf commoners would know only their racial language and common, making them more insular, but that is the way demihumans are supposed to be.

 

[Sadrik]

I have been working on this for several years.

This is like my skills as saves house rule.

I recently shrank my skill list to what I think is the most perfect condensation.

There are no skill specializations- just 30 skills to choose from.

Act (Cha) disguise, perform comedy, perform act
Agility (Dex) balance, escape artist, tumble, perform dance, use rope, all other dexterity related checks
Alchemy (Int) appraise and make, alchemical items, poisons, antidotes, potion identification
Athletics (Str) climb, jump, swim, all other strength related checks
Awareness (Wis) spot, listen and other sense related checks
Bluff (Cha) no change
Building (Int) appraise, repair and make architecture, big traps, steamcraft items, construct bodies
Common Knowledge (Int) knowledge: local, geography, history, nobility, royalty
Concentration (Con) no change
Diplomacy (Cha) diplomacy, gather information, perform oratory
Disable Device (Int) disable devices, sabotage devices, open locks
Drive (Dex) drive cars, boats, chariots, wagons
Engineering (Int) appraise, repair and make devices, locks, fine traps, clockwork items, construct innards
Finery (Int) appraise and make all forms of finery, art, forgery, gem cutting, jewelry
Handle Animal (Cha) no change
Heal (Int) no change
Intimidate (Cha) no change
Language (Int) speak and read languages, identify script, decipher script
Music (Cha) perform: sing, percussion, keyboard, string, wind
Pilot (Dex) pilot planes, trains, balloons, ships
Ride (Dex) no change
Search (Int) search, track
Sense Motive (Wis) no change
Sleight of Hand (Dex) no change
Sneak (Dex) hide, move silently, must beat awareness DC of 10 + awareness to sneak
Spellcraft (Int) spellcraft, use magic device
Supernatural Lore (Int) knowledge: occult, arcana, the planes, religion
Warcraft (Int) tactics, lead troops, set and detect ambushes, siege equipment, artillery firing and upkeep
Weaponscraft (Int) appraise, repair and make all weapons and armor
Wilderness Lore (Int) survival, knowledge: geography, nature, dungeoneering

If you are intersted in the mechanics fo my skills as saves I can post it too.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

Oops some how I double posted...

Sadrik

 

[Zoatebix]

I like this a lot! I might have to adopt it.

 

[Quickleaf]

I recently shrank my skill list to what I think is the most perfect condensation.

That's a nice list, though Common Knowledge seems a bit vague...and wouldn't religion, current events, business, and politics be common knowledge?

If you are intersted in the mechanics fo my skills as saves I can post it too.

Yes, please do!