New Spells: Mage Bolts, Vacuum Burst, Gravity Warp(edited)

[Stalker0]

I agree that mage bolts is too powerful. You mentioned people using magic missile all the way through 20th level, that's true but it still only does 5d4+5, this is doing 10d6. And you do have to consider metamagic feats when balancing spells, they are a core part of the system, and a spell designer has to assume the possibility (indeed the probability) of their use.

How about changing vaccum blast to sonic damage, and lowering the damage. You've already made it different from cone of cold with its stunning effect which is already huge. Since it can do that, the damage should be lowered.

 

[Nifft]

I agree that mage bolts is too powerful. You mentioned people using magic missile all the way through 20th level, that's true but it still only does 5d4+5, this is doing 10d6.

Note that 1d4+1 = 1d6 in average damage. So, his spell is exactly like a double Magic Missile (in terms of damage output).

IMC, I've house-ruled that Magic Missle caps at 3 missiles (at 5th level). So, one of my players is researching a 3rd level version of the spell (Magic Missile, Improved), which will deal 1d6+1 x 5 missiles.

Gravity Warp looks like it wants a Reflex save instead of a Fort. Dodging stuff in changing gravity fields sounds like a job for the quick of hand and eye... that's my gut instinct anyway. If you want a higher-level Fort save spell, look to Necromancy, or see my Sonic spells below.

Vacuum Burst is interesting, but I would not allow it IMC. Here's what I allow as an anti-rogue sonic spell:

Cacophonic Detonation
Evocation [Air, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20 ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Invoking this spell causes a sonic detonation which damages those caught within its area, dealing 1d6/level (max 10d6) Sonic damage.


Cacophonic Detonation, Greater
Evocation [Air, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 40 ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Invoking this spell causes a sonic detonation which damages those caught within its area, dealing 1d8/level (max 25d8) Sonic damage.


Cacophonic Detonation, Minor
Evocation [Air, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 5 ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Invoking this spell causes a sonic detonation which damages those caught within its area, dealing 1d6/2 levels (max 5d6) Sonic damage.

-- N

 

[Merlion]

Vacuum Burst is probably slightly too strong. In terms of pure damage, it matches Cone of Cold, but since it does an unnamed damage type, it should probably be pegged at around 6th.

Why? because its a 5th level damage spell thats actualy useful when you get it?
Cone of Cold is not a good benchmark as its drasticaly underpowered especialy when you get it. Untill 15th level the only reason to take it is to have a cold damage spell, since until then its just a fireball that takes a 5th level slot and has an inferior AOE.
Do you really, really think its equal to Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Circle of Death etc?

Gravity Warp is, again, slightly too powerful. It is more powerful than Horrid Wilting, at 8th (though, arguably, the 3.5 Horrid Wilting is too weak...this is certainly a line of argument I'd be willing to stick to) since it affects all type of creatures (undead etc. are immune to HW), but is partially mitigated by the expensive material component. Perhaps bump this to 8th?

Its not more powerful than Horrid Wilting. Horrid Wilting has what amounts to a 60 foot area, and much longer range, and no expensive component. That being said, I may reduce the area on Gravity Warp to 20'

 

[Merlion]

I agree that mage bolts is too powerful. You mentioned people using magic missile all the way through 20th level, that's true but it still only does 5d4+5, this is doing 10d6.

Yes, and its also 2 levels higher.

And you do have to consider metamagic feats when balancing spells, they are a core part of the system, and a spell designer has to assume the possibility (indeed the probability) of their use.

You've got it somewhat backwards. You balance the spell, and then it will be balanced when used with metamagic. You dont use metamagic to decide if a spell is balanced.

You've already made it different from cone of cold with its stunning effect which is already huge. Since it can do that, the damage should be lowered.

Which puts it back at being just like Cone of Cold...underpowered and sub-optimal. If I lower the damage to 10d6 max it becomes an untyped fireball with a stun, and not worth more than 4th level. I dont see anything in the rules stating that if a spell does a bit of something else in addition to damage, it has to do sub-par damage for its level.

 

[Merlion]

Gravity Warp looks like it wants a Reflex save instead of a Fort. Dodging stuff in changing gravity fields sounds like a job for the quick of hand and eye... that's my gut instinct anyway. If you want a higher-level Fort save spell, look to Necromancy, or see my Sonic spells below.

I dont really see how being light on your feet will help you avoid damage from a gravity spasm tearing at your body. I also dont really see why only Necromancy should have fort saves

Vacuum Burst is interesting, but I would not allow it IMC. Here's what I allow as an anti-rogue sonic spell

Why not? and how is it anti-rogue? especialy since as I said I am going to make the reflex save negate the stun.
But it seems odd to me that you wouldnt allow it in your game but you'll allow this:

Cacophonic Detonation
Evocation [Air, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20 ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Invoking this spell causes a sonic detonation which damages those caught within its area, dealing 1d6/level (max 10d6) Sonic damage.



Which is almost the same thing, but a level lower and without the stun....not to mention this....


Cacophonic Detonation, Greater
Evocation [Air, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 40 ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Invoking this spell causes a sonic detonation which damages those caught within its area, dealing 1d8/level (max 25d8) Sonic damage.


Which breaks the damage caps...with d8s no less..and what is almost like untyped damage

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, and its also 2 levels higher.

True, but 10d6 at 10th level can kill a whole lot of players with no save, no attack roll, no energy res, you just take it and die. No other spell can do that at 3rd level. Magic missile at 5d4+5 is powerful, but its not often an instant death spell.

You've got it somewhat backwards. You balance the spell, and then it will be balanced when used with metamagic. You dont use metamagic to decide if a spell is balanced.

Not always: spells that are fine can suddenly become extrememly powerful when certain metamagic is added, much more so than the intent.

Which puts it back at being just like Cone of Cold...underpowered and sub-optimal. If I lower the damage to 10d6 max it becomes an untyped fireball with a stun, and not worth more than 4th level. I dont see anything in the rules stating that if a spell does a bit of something else in addition to damage, it has to do sub-par damage for its level.

I think you severly underestimate the power of stun, especially an area effect one.

 

[Merlion]

Magic missile at 5d4+5 is powerful, but its not often an instant death spell.

As Mr Penguin pointed out, in terms of average damage my spell is a double magic missile at 3 times the level. seems sensible.

True, but 10d6 at 10th level can kill a whole lot of players with no save, no attack roll, no energy res, you just take it and die

No, it cant. you are greatly overstating its power and the amount of damage. At 10th level it can deal an average of 30 damage to a single target with no attack roll or save. Even a 10th level mage with a deccent Con could easily have more than 30 hp, plus they will probably have either a Brooch of Shielding or a Shield spell or both, which negates the spell entirely. And an average of 30 damage against a 10th level melee type is going to be unpleasant, but hardly instant death. Also bear in mind that many creatures have SR, and by 10th level PCs have access to Spell Resistance as a spell.

Not always: spells that are fine can suddenly become extrememly powerful when certain metamagic is added, much more so than the intent.

I am talking about core metamagic feats, not the funky ones from other sources. You dont use feats as a comparison to balance spells. If the spell is balanced, it will be balanced when used with a balanced metamagic feat. Maxmizing this spell for an automatic 60 damage as a 6th level spell is not unbalanced...especialy since a wizard must choose to prepare it ahead of time, and a sorcerer (or my Mystic) suffers increased casting time as well.

I think you severly underestimate the power of stun, especially an area effect one.

I think you underestimate what a 5th level spell should be capable of, and slightly overestimate stun especialy one with a save to negate. Although I may reduce the duration of the stun slightly.

 

[Merlion]

Ok Vacuum burst now has 1 save and only a 1 round stun on a failure, and Gravity Warp has a 20 ft radius instead of 30

 

[Nifft]

I dont really see how being light on your feet will help you avoid damage from a gravity spasm tearing at your body. I also dont really see why only Necromancy should have fort saves

Yes, I know. I was disagreeing with you. I'm certain that you disagree. As to the second sentence, what are you talking about? Who brought up necromancy?

I'm thinking Reflex because it seemed to me that the damage was caused by things hitting the target, either actual things or "telekinetic blasts".

Why not? and how is it anti-rogue? especialy since as I said I am going to make the reflex save negate the stun.
But it seems odd to me that you wouldnt allow it in your game but you'll allow this:
[...my spells...]
Which breaks the damage caps...with d8s no less..and what is almost like untyped damage

Why I wouldn't use that spell: two saves. Now you've fixed that, I might consider it. Long range: that's very powerful. I'd reduce it to Medium range.

Anti-Rogue -> direct damage, no Reflex save. Understand?

Sonic = Untyped?! what are you smoking? Gravity Warp is the only thing in this thread that deals untyped damage. Protection from Energy will nix Sonics right quick. Many planar critters have Sonic resistance, including Formians and Slaadi off the top of my head. Armor with Sonic Resistance costs no more than armor with Fire Resistance.

The reason it does that damage type, and in that quantity, is that it's a weakened Horrid Wilting. Ooo, maybe you mean the 25d6... that's a typo, it's 20d6.

-- N

 

[Merlion]

Who brought up necromancy

You, saying to look there for higher level damage spells with fort saves.

I'm thinking Reflex because it seemed to me that the damage was caused by things hitting the target, either actual things or "telekinetic blasts".

The warping of gravity does the damage directly to creatures...its basicaly spasms of greatly intensified gravity.

Anti-Rogue -> direct damage, no Reflex save. Understand

I think you were refering to VB, which has a reflex save.

Why I wouldn't use that spell: two saves.

Wouldnt use, or wouldnt allow in your game? cause you said you wouldnt allow it. Do you really disalow any spell with multiple saves?

Sonic = Untyped?! what are you smoking? Gravity Warp is the only thing in this thread that deals untyped damage. Protection from Energy will nix Sonics right quick. Many planar critters have Sonic resistance, including Formians and Slaadi off the top of my head. Armor with Sonic Resistance costs no more than armor with Fire Resistance.

Well, more what I ment is all the "everything is broken" people seem to think Sonic is unbalanced as well, as so I would still have people complaining.

The reason it does that damage type, and in that quantity, is that it's a weakened Horrid Wilting. Ooo, maybe you mean the 25d6... that's a typo, it's 20d6

Ahh ok. Thought it might be.