New stealth stuff from WotC

[gos_jim]

Haha, well I'm glad you liked the diagram, even if it was an example of why the D&D cover system is not very good If I had realized it would be useful in that way I would have spent more than a couple seconds drawing out the lines and everything.

Edit: I was corrected on Wizard's forums, you need line of effect to attack someone, and line of effect IS blocked by touching the edge of an object. So in my above example, Hero does not have line of effect to the Elves. He still has line of effect to the Trolls, so the cover rules take over and the cover is as above, but he can't see or attack either Elf.

 

[Paul Strack]

I like the new rules. I don't think it's too much of a pain for a rogue to have to be completely concealed or hidden to be able to stealth. This does nerf ranged rogues a little bit, but not a huge amount.

However, what I don't like is now I need to be very aware of how superior cover works vs. normal cover, and how someone can achieve superior cover.

This my main objection to the new rules. It makes playing rogues very tedious. You either need a forgiving GM or a deep understanding of the cover rules. I am not interested in waiting 10 minutes for the rogue to look over his possible destinations and draw lines to various squares every time he moves.

However, a defender may spend a minor action to "press" against cover. This gives them superior cover against anyone who they previous only had normal cover against. Stealth can not be used as a part of this minor action (because stealth is now a part of a move action only). Superior cover achieved in this way is lost after any other action is resolved.

I see where you are going with this, but it's non-Stealth application are too good. What would prevent a character who ends his turn behind normal Cover from "pressing" and thereby being -5 to hit instead of -2?

Also, you need Superior Cover at the end of you move to use Stealth, not at the beginning. So it wouldn't actually help for hiding.

My draft house rules are as follows:

Partially Hidden (Stealth Trained Only): If you make a move ending behind any cover or concealment, you can make Stealth check against your enemy's passive Perception to become partially hidden. If successful, you gain a Combat Advantage against that opponent for your next attack or until the end of your turn, whichever comes first. If you are able to target multiple opponents with a single attack, compare your Stealth check against their passive Perceptions separately to see which ones you are partially hidden from and have Combat Advantage against. You can only be partially hidden from opponents against whom you have cover or concealment. For this purpose, allies do not count as cover.

That gives rogues back their offensive advantage without opening the door to the mounds of defensive cheese I objected to in the original rules. Making it trained only keeps it as special sauce for stealthy characters like rangers and rogues.

 

[gos_jim]

Actually, nothing would prevent characters from pressing up against cover after attacking, but that's actually a tactic that I think makes sense. Pretty much every single time I've GMd for a new player who uses range, at some point they say "Can I pop out, shoot my [crossbow/bow/spell], then duck back?" and I have to tell them "Ehh... no.... not really. You just have to stand there partially covered by the wall, which gives you a +2."

Also, about having superior cover at the END of a move, well in my system that is handled by allowing someone to use a move action to move 0 squares then stealth at the end of the move action. My rule specifically states you lose superior cover after an action resolves, so you would move (nowhere), stealth, lose superior cover.

I could probably clarify it by saying you lose superior cover after resolving any action or immediately if you move from your current space. That would specifically disallow people to charge out from cover while retaining superior cover against any Opportunity Attacks they provoke while doing so, or by moving out into the open to another spot of cover then stealthing when they get there. Thanks for bringing that up, and I do like your implementation's simplicity, and the way it works similarly to powers in 4E.

 

[bardolph]

I propose that the rules for cover be changed to this:

A defender has normal cover if a line from one of the attacker's corners can reach 1-3 of the defender's corners, no cover if a line can be drawn to all 4 corners, and (obviously) superior cover if a line cannot be drawn to any corner.

However, a defender may spend a minor action to "press" against cover. This gives them superior cover against anyone who they previous only had normal cover against. Stealth can not be used as a part of this minor action (because stealth is now a part of a move action only). Superior cover achieved in this way is lost after any other action is resolved.

My first instinct is to rule it the other way: that cover is cover, regardless of how many corners you can count. Superior Cover would need to be explicitly defined as such. This also solves the goofy diagonal problem.

If you allow a "press" in order to gain Superior Cover, it doesn't really make sense that the press would end with your turn. It also doesn't make much sense that your enemies lose track of you just because you made a Stealth check after ducking behind a table.

I'd be willing to allow prone characters to gain total cover behind a low wall, but only if they give up their attack to do so. Same thing with corners: if you're willing to expose yourself enough to shoot someone around a corner, you should not benefit from total cover (or stealth, for that matter).

The compendium rules seem intent on giving stealth rolls in the following situations:

(a) before combat begins, while preparing for battle, and
(b) during combat, but only if the terrain is favorable (either through blocked LoS or Superior Cover/Total Concealment).

This seems reasonable to me. It means that, once the battle gets underway, the rogue needs to rely on status effects and flanking to achieve CA, unless the terrain is especially favorable for sniping.

Even so, doing the "stealth shuffle" around a corner to gain CA every other round is still an option, and I don't see much problem with that tactic.

 

[Paul Strack]

Actually, nothing would prevent characters from pressing up against cover after attacking, but that's actually a tactic that I think makes sense. Pretty much every single time I've GMd for a new player who uses range, at some point they say "Can I pop out, shoot my [crossbow/bow/spell], then duck back?" and I have to tell them "Ehh... no.... not really. You just have to stand there partially covered by the wall, which gives you a +2."

If you are OK with that, then your rule works.

Also, about having superior cover at the END of a move, well in my system that is handled by allowing someone to use a move action to move 0 squares then stealth at the end of the move action. My rule specifically states you lose superior cover after an action resolves, so you would move (nowhere), stealth, lose superior cover.

I could probably clarify it by saying you lose superior cover after resolving any action or immediately if you move from your current space. That would specifically disallow people to charge out from cover while retaining superior cover against any Opportunity Attacks they provoke while doing so, or by moving out into the open to another spot of cover then stealthing when they get there. Thanks for bringing that up, and I do like your implementation's simplicity, and the way it works similarly to powers in 4E.

One of the things I like about the new Compendium rules is that it forces stealthy character to move in order to hide. So far my experience with 4E is that mobility = fun. From what I can tell, your rule would discourage movement, because they could stay in place to keep CA or move and probably lose it.

 

[Ganadai]

The Hero does not have line of sight (pg. 273) to either of the Elves, so he can't even target them.

 

[Paul Strack]

I just realized: the new rules boost TWF rangers!

The new rules let you retain the benefits of being hidden for the action that you break cover. This lets you hide and then charge out of cover to attack with CA. This isn't such a good option for the Dex-based rogues and archer-rangers, but it is pretty good tactic for the Str-based TWF-rangers. With a bit of set up, you get a basic attack at +3 to hit.

That depends, of course, on how generous your DM is about charging around corners (technically legal, because you only need to "move directly to your target").

 

[Mistwell]

That means they can only stealth once every 2 rounds, while Troll B can stealth every round, simply because he is on a diagonal.

I don't mind that a rogue can only get CA every other round if they do it ranged. That's perfectly fine with me. But I don't like that if you set yourself up arbitrarily based on how the game works, you CAN get it every round, if you are able to work on a diagonal.

First, great diagram. Thank you, and I would love to see more.

Second, could you please spell out, step by step, what actions are taken to get stealth every other round in the scenario you just described?

 

[gos_jim]

Yes, I corrected myself in my post up above, thank you Ganadai.

bardolph, Paul Strack, thank you for the feedback, and I agree with both of your statements.

bardolph, as far as stealthing after ducking behind a table goes, it is no different from the pre-compendium rules, which I didn't particularly have a problem with other than that they were very open to interpretation. In fact, in KotS they have goblins getting stealth by ducking under tables, it is a recommended tactic. If you have a problem with that, then as a DM you could rule that the character is simply unable to get superior cover from the cover they are behind. A table would be one of those situations. I will probably be doing that, thank you for mentioning it.

I also have no problem at all with the "stealth shuffle". It doesn't bother me if a rogue has to step back and step forward to "re-stealth", only allowing them to get CA at range once every two rounds. That is perfectly fine with me, and seems balanced. My personal issue with it is that there seem to be arbitrary positions where superior cover is granted when you would think it shouldn't be (as in my diagram), especially along diagonals. This means that SOME rogues will have to do the shuffle, but others if they get lucky on a weird corner, are twice as effective. I don't mind if they get superior cover every round if they're behind a murder hole, but I'd rather them not get it just because their enemy is diagonal to them rather than along a straight line.

Paul Strack, I appreciate your input and discouraging movement is definitely not something I want to do. I am constantly telling my players that in 4e, mobility is incredibly important. I am not attempting to solve this issue. However, I think that the "stealth shuffle", as bardolph put it, back and forth at a corner, is a rather superficial amount of "movement" to partake in. I don't think it is a big loss if the need to do it is removed. Thanks again both of you for your thoughts on my ideas.

Mistwell: To get stealth every other round using the new rules (compendium rules, not my house rules), you could do this:

R1. Standard Action: Attack from a corner (with normal cover, Troll A in my diagram), possibly with CA from being stealthed previously.
R1: Move Action: Move back a step to get superior cover, stealth.

Next Round

R2: Move Action: Move to the corner. You still have cover, so you retain stealth.
R2: Standard Action: Attack from corner with CA.

To get it every round, you can do this:

R1: Standard Action: Attack from a corner (with superior cover, Troll B in my diagram), possibly with CA from being stealthed previously.
R1: Move Action: Move 0 squares, re-stealth. (It's debatable whether this is allowed or not. If not, you could step back 1, then step forward again because you will still have superior cover in your end space at the corner).
R2: Standard Action: Attack from the corner again, with CA again.

This is the one thing about the new rules I don't like. It requires the "stealth shuffle" for purely arbitrary reasons. As shown in the diagram, Troll A is ACTUALLY more hidden than Troll B, but Troll A has to move back and forth and he can only get CA every other round, while Troll B can just sit pretty and get CA each attack, AND he has better defense. This is the problem my change is attempting to address. It's not a problem with the new Stealth rules, those are tight. It's a problem with the existing Cover rules (in my opinion).

 

[Mistwell]

Mistwell: To get stealth every other round using the new rules (compendium rules, not my house rules), you could do this:

R1. Standard Action: Attack from a corner (with normal cover, Troll A in my diagram), possibly with CA from being stealthed previously.
R1: Move Action: Move back a step to get superior cover, stealth.

Next Round

R2: Move Action: Move to the corner. You still have cover, so you retain stealth.
R2: Standard Action: Attack from corner with CA.

To get it every round, you can do this:

R1: Standard Action: Attack from a corner (with superior cover, Troll B in my diagram), possibly with CA from being stealthed previously.
R1: Move Action: Move 0 squares, re-stealth. (It's debatable whether this is allowed or not. If not, you could step back 1, then step forward again because you will still have superior cover in your end space at the corner).
R2: Standard Action: Attack from the corner again, with CA again.

This is the one thing about the new rules I don't like. It requires the "stealth shuffle" for purely arbitrary reasons. As shown in the diagram, Troll A is ACTUALLY more hidden than Troll B, but Troll A has to move back and forth and he can only get CA every other round, while Troll B can just sit pretty and get CA each attack, AND he has better defense. This is the problem my change is attempting to address. It's not a problem with the new Stealth rules, those are tight. It's a problem with the existing Cover rules (in my opinion).

Do you agree with my analysis of the Ranger at-will ability Nimble Strike, that it allows you to gain CA every round through stealth? You start behind superior or full cover while stealthed, shift one square and attack with combat advantage from stealth as part of nimble strike, then move back and stealth behind the superior or total cover. Repeat next round.